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just some thoughts about the bigger picture of mixing new realities into Torg.

 

In canon, Torg has only used one approach to the multiverse genre, an invasion by orchestrated forces led by a big boss. But there are other approaches too and I am wondering of how they could be used in Torg without stretching the canon too much.

 

  • dimension gates that exist hidden somewhere or are opening spontaneously. This is already done in the Nile Empire, Land Below and Space Gods.
  • Gods that fight some kind of Dimensional Chess Game. This is the background of Bloodshadows (and some other RPGs and fantasy too of course). The High Lords could be seen to be on the way to this kind of godhood. But in order to be really effective, they need a pantheon and allegiance is anathema to them. The nordic and greek gods that take part in the invasion on the side of the warrior of the dark or on Mobius' side are examples for this. It seems obvious that these gods, though they are more powerful than a high lord, don't have the means to use reality mechanics.
  • Shifting worlds that are world A one day and world B the next. The middle age view of the fairy world where the real world is somewhat mirrored (in modern version as Alice in wonderland and others). I am currently toying with this idea for the shifting world of Aysle.
  • Ur-worlds, the planes where the creatures came from. This was in some respect done with the werecreature world featured in "Interview with Evil" (though this book is not seen as canon by most, me too). It is also often said that the elves are not from Aysle. And it is always asumed that there are elemental planes, planes where the demons come from etc. though these planes are never described
  • and of course, other planets in a broader universe, that could also be seen as different planes. The Martians of Terra and the planets in the Star Sphere.
  • Time warps. These are not used at all in Torg as far as I remember.

 

There are lot of canon problem in all this, but the biggest is, are these other worlds other realities or part of a parent reality? F.i. are the Terra Martians from the reality of Terra or are they reality raiders? And what are the consequences (how do they do the dimension travel, are all of them poss-rated or do they have other means)? Personally, I think it is easier to have planes as part of existing realities but in some kind of dimensional gap.

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just some thoughts about the bigger picture of mixing new realities into Torg.

 

In canon, Torg has only used one approach to the multiverse genre, an invasion by orchestrated forces led by a big boss.

I'll submit "The Land Below" and "Space Gods" as a SECOND approach. ;)

Still, I see where you are coming from.

 

 

But there are other approaches too and I am wondering of how they could be used in Torg without stretching the canon too much.

 

  • dimension gates that exist hidden somewhere or are opening spontaneously. This is already done in the Nile Empire, Land Below and Space Gods.
  • Gods that fight some kind of Dimensional Chess Game. This is the background of Bloodshadows (and some other RPGs and fantasy too of course). The High Lords could be seen to be on the way to this kind of godhood. But in order to be really effective, they need a pantheon and allegiance is anathema to them. The nordic and greek gods that take part in the invasion on the side of the warrior of the dark or on Mobius' side are examples for this. It seems obvious that these gods, though they are more powerful than a high lord, don't have the means to use reality mechanics.
  • Shifting worlds that are world A one day and world B the next. The middle age view of the fairy world where the real world is somewhat mirrored (in modern version as Alice in wonderland and others). I am currently toying with this idea for the shifting world of Aysle.
  • Ur-worlds, the planes where the creatures came from. This was in some respect done with the werecreature world featured in "Interview with Evil" (though this book is not seen as canon by most, me too). It is also often said that the elves are not from Aysle. And it is always assumed that there are elemental planes, planes where the demons come from etc. though these planes are never described
  • and of course, other planets in a broader universe, that could also be seen as different planes. The Martians of Terra and the planets in the Star Sphere.
  • Time warps. These are not used at all in Torg as far as I remember.

 

There are lot of canon problem in all this, but the biggest is, are these other worlds other realities or part of a parent reality? F.i. are the Terra Martians from the reality of Terra or are they reality raiders? And what are the consequences (how do they do the dimension travel, are all of them poss-rated or do they have other means)? Personally, I think it is easier to have planes as part of existing realities but in some kind of dimensional gap.

Let's not forget that a Cosm can contain several worlds.

Core Earth also contains Atlantis and Avalon though they were presented somewhat ambiguously as if they could be a separate Cosm, but instead they are part of Core Earth.

"Demons" and "Fae" can come from some sort of alternate reality within the Cosm itself, I firmly believe this true of the Tharkoldu of the Tharkold setting.

 

If I were to make a "DC Universe" Cosm, it would contain all 52 Earths as well as the entire universe of all 52 of those Earths.

 

If I seriously tackled a "World of Darkness" Cosm beyond the one bit offered in a thread so far, the entire cosmology offered in that setting would exist inside their Cosm.

 

I think there is more precedent for your desired additions than you might realize.

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Right now I am working from the asumption that there are different planes, that are epitomal of a certain concept, f.i. demon plane, fire plane, earth plane, fey plane etc. These planes can be visited (though you will have problems surviving on some), nothing new, this is a staple of normal fantasy literature. They are part of a cosm and this is where all those summoned creatures stem from.

 

And then there are mirror universes. They are essentially pocket dimensions, like Avalon and Atlantis. Somewhere it was mentioned that pocket dimensions are part of a cosm but can become full-fledged cosms some way (though it is not said how). As long as they are mirror universes they tend to take over part of the cosm and establish themselves which is my way of explaining how they can become cosms. They overtake the cosm.

 

This is what happens in Aysle realm on a regular basis. There are two pocket dimensions fighting to become the cosm reality. When Uthorion took control he changed the reality of earth, meaning he allowed one possible world from an infinity of pocket dimensions to exchange the excisting reality, banishing Light Aysle into a pocket dimension. When Ardinay came back she used her memory about how Aysle once was (stored in Tolwyn) to sort the reality of Light Aysle from the infinity of pocket dimensions and bring it back. Dark Aysle was cast into a pocket dimension.

 

In the realm the stelae triangles often change from Light to Dark Aysle, casting the opposite into a pocket dimension. So there is a pocket dimension that is a perfect reflection of our Aysle realm. It has no parent cosm as it is but a pocket dimension but it is a complete realm. To avoid confusion I'll call the dominant version attached to the cosm the real realm and the other the mirror realm. The mirror realm is a full fledged realm, maelstrom bridges are present there but cannot be accessed. Also, there is nothing beyond the storm boundaries. Those zones that are light in the mirror realm are dark in the real realm and vice versa. But when in the real realm a zone switches, it also switches in the mirror. It is not possible to switch a zone in the mirror realm.

 

When a zone switches, basically everything is exchanged. It is as if everything in the real zone is exchanged by everything else in the mirror zone. But this does not happen instantly. From time to time people are replaced by their mirror. This is done without any perceivable pattern. It can take up to a year until everybody is replaced. Nature and non-living are replaced faster but still not instantly. When people see that their beloved ones have changed into hideous creatures this can be rather discomforting. People don't know that their loved ones still exist - on the other side of the mirror. There they will surely have a hard time, especially those that arrive first.

 

This of course is a big change from the Aysle world laws where in the Light areas the true evil is shown while in the dark areas it is hidden. In this version the evil shown in light areas is really evil and was not hidden previously. But I think it is worth it, as it brings so much more possibilities for adventures and gives Aysle a distinct touch. To keep this somewhat in line with the Aysle world laws let's say people tainted with evil are taken first when the area switches to light and go last when it switches to dark.

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Right now I am working from the asumption that there are different planes, that are epitomal of a certain concept, f.i. demon plane, fire plane, earth plane, fey plane etc. These planes can be visited (though you will have problems surviving on some), nothing new, this is a staple of normal fantasy literature. They are part of a cosm and this is where all those summoned creatures stem from.

Not much a digression from the Rules as Written.

It is how they can happen and why.

And then there are mirror universes. They are essentially pocket dimensions, like Avalon and Atlantis. Somewhere it was mentioned that pocket dimensions are part of a cosm but can become full-fledged cosms some way (though it is not said how). As long as they are mirror universes they tend to take over part of the cosm and establish themselves which is my way of explaining how they can become cosms. They overtake the cosm.

That was only me over in the WEG forums.

And I offered the image of the Pocket Dimension "budding" off of the parent Cosm and remaining there because the Pocket Dimension lacks some vital element which would allow it to be self sufficient.

Should it find that missing element required for self sufficiency, it could break free to be its own Cosm.

Its not supported in the rules but it makes a certain weird sense to some people.

I find it an elegant way to present a Cosm that might seem less than complete or which seems to originally consist of a "road not taken" as Tharkold, Gaea, and Magna Verita seem to offer.

This is what happens in Aysle realm on a regular basis. There are two pocket dimensions fighting to become the cosm reality. When Uthorion took control he changed the reality of earth, meaning he allowed one possible world from an infinity of pocket dimensions to exchange the excisting reality, banishing Light Aysle into a pocket dimension. When Ardinay came back she used her memory about how Aysle once was (stored in Tolwyn) to sort the reality of Light Aysle from the infinity of pocket dimensions and bring it back. Dark Aysle was cast into a pocket dimension.

 

In the realm the stelae triangles often change from Light to Dark Aysle, casting the opposite into a pocket dimension. So there is a pocket dimension that is a perfect reflection of our Aysle realm. It has no parent cosm as it is but a pocket dimension but it is a complete realm. To avoid confusion I'll call the dominant version attached to the cosm the real realm and the other the mirror realm. The mirror realm is a full fledged realm, maelstrom bridges are present there but cannot be accessed. Also, there is nothing beyond the storm boundaries. Those zones that are light in the mirror realm are dark in the real realm and vice versa. But when in the real realm a zone switches, it also switches in the mirror. It is not possible to switch a zone in the mirror realm.

 

When a zone switches, basically everything is exchanged. It is as if everything in the real zone is exchanged by everything else in the mirror zone. But this does not happen instantly. From time to time people are replaced by their mirror. This is done without any perceivable pattern. It can take up to a year until everybody is replaced. Nature and non-living are replaced faster but still not instantly. When people see that their beloved ones have changed into hideous creatures this can be rather discomforting. People don't know that their loved ones still exist - on the other side of the mirror. There they will surely have a hard time, especially those that arrive first.

 

This of course is a big change from the Aysle world laws where in the Light areas the true evil is shown while in the dark areas it is hidden. In this version the evil shown in light areas is really evil and was not hidden previously. But I think it is worth it, as it brings so much more possibilities for adventures and gives Aysle a distinct touch. To keep this somewhat in line with the Aysle world laws let's say people tainted with evil are taken first when the area switches to light and go last when it switches to dark.

 

I feel like you just invented "Ravenloft" within Aysle -- Ravenloft is a strange "prison dimension" for evil to become encased in a domain rather like your Dark Aysle "mirror reality".

The "Dark Lords" are prisoners in a distorted reflection of each of their homes complete with subjects and citizens whom they may rule over, but they can never leave that domain even though they wish to.

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I am going to close this thread, since this is supposed to be only a forum header thread to let people know what it is about and what the rules are.

If you want to continue this conversation please feel free to continue this in a new thread.

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