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Otto von Grunwald

Physique/Strength Limit?

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I was wondering what limits everyone sets on their campaign for Physique/Strength. The rule books set it at 5D(?) but that seems pretty high especially once PCs start wearing armor and a pistol will do something like 3D+2 damage.

 

In my games, each die is roughly a doubling in effect so a 3D physique PC is 'twice as tough' as a 2D average human. By that measure I figured your average Black bear (around ht 6'6" and 350lbs.) would have a physique of say 3D+2 (with a pip or two of extra resistance from its hide). I used to limit it to 4D+1 for everybody (Wookies were 4D+2 though ;)) and required a very good explaination if a human PC had above 3D+2.

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I agree that using an exponential increase is a useful tool for scaling strength, but I still use the old "Star Wars" - "Metabarons" scale, with the exception of dropping the minimum - there are disabled people in the world, and if a player wanted to try such a character, I'd permit it. For the most part I use a minimum of 1D, and I max out in my designs at 4D, with the explanation that it's double what 3D is capable of, and 4X what 2D is capable of.

 

The only point I'd question, then, would be the relative toughness of a Black Bear. I'd max at 4D for humans, and leave the possibility of certain animals hitting 5D. Primates, in particular, have demonstrated tremendous feats of strength under scientific observation.

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I normally go by the older edition rule of 4D maximum for humans. Other races might have a different threshold, Wookies might get 5D, Jawas only 2D+1. I find this does tend to work the best.

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I created this for a D6 Legend-based RPG about 4 years ago:

 

Alternative 3.2 – Lifting (AP System)

This variant uses only a character’s Strength attribute, and does not allow the use the Lifting skill, so it should be implemented prior to character generation for that reason. Only the Strength attribute and the Wild Die are used in this instance. Start with your base Strength, and roll the Wild Die. If it is a 6 (or 5 or 6 if you have a Boost related to your Strength), then increase by one level and roll the Wild Die again. If it is another 6 (or 5 or 6 if you have a 2 Boosts related to your Strength), then increase by one level and roll the Wild Die again, and so on.

 

This option is recommended for “Lost World” type campaigns where dinosaurs (or 25 foot-tall gorillas with a Strength attribute of 11 or 12) still roam. The listed weight would be the total that could be lifted above the character's head, competition-style.

 

STR Weight tons pounds

1D 1/32 ton 70 pounds

2D 1/16 ton 140 pounds

3D 1/8 ton 280 pounds

4D 1/4 ton 560 pounds

5D 1/2 ton 1,120 pounds

6D 1 ton 2,240 pounds

7D 2 tons 4,480 pounds

8D 4 tons 8,960 pounds

9D 8 tons 17,920 pounds

10D 16 tons 35,840 pounds

11D 32 tons 71,680 pounds

12D 64 tons 143,360 pounds

13D 128 tons 286,720 pounds

14D 256 tons 573,440 pounds

15D 512 tons 1,146,880 pounds

 

So, someone with a 4 could hit world-record ability with a 6 on the Wild Die, and (with a lot of luck) the average person could lift far beyond their normal ability - it's just not very likely... Using the D6 Purgatory rules mixed in, a player could spend character points to add Wild Die to the roll, to increase their chances - but the GM would need to decide if they wanted to allow for the possibility of someone with a STR of 2 or 3 lifting the same as someone with a 4 so routinely.

 

As for wound options for a 4D6 cap, there's some ideas that I really like on this thread...

Edited by Lee Torres

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I don't mind the Str going up to 5D...

If I recall correctly, they had it in a SW book that stats could reach 5D... they just had to pay out the nose, and had to roll to see if the character had hit there limit when trying to go over 5D...

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The only point I'd question, then, would be the relative toughness of a Black Bear.

 

This from Biggamehunt.net:

The American black bear is the most common and smallest bear species in North America. They grow about 5 feet long and can range in weight from 200-300 pounds, with some weighing as much as 500 pounds.

Looks like I overestimated their size a bit.

 

Plus I usually assign a damage of 4D+1 to a .357mag and 5D to a .44mag pistol. At 3D+2 with a pip of Hide resistance, a Black bear would shrug off more than half of the hits from anything smaller than the above callibers(9mm and .45s do 3D+2 in my campaigns).

 

I wouldn't recommend hunting a bear with a pistol; but I think that a smaller bear like a Black bear would feel the effects of a .357 or .44(even if it took 3~5 rounds to drop it)

 

If you assign higher damages to firearms then I would think the Bear's Physique would be correspondingly higher. :)

 

-Otto "Gentle Ben" von G.

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...If I recall correctly, they had it in a SW book that stats could reach 5D... they just had to pay out the nose, and had to roll to see if the character had hit there limit when trying to go over 5D...

 

Yes, through character advancement, Star Wars would allow you to attempt to raise your character's attribute above the species maximum attribute (not specifically 5D, just whatever that was for each species). Yes, you would pay a lot of CPs for it and then roll to see if the attempt was successful. I think this thread is referring to what the GM sets as the max end of the range for STR (which is 4D for humans in Star Wars).

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Lee's post above inspired me to come up with this...(Current world record lift is 263.5kg set in 2004)

 

PHYSIQUE/LIFTING DIFFICULTY

The amount a PC can lift is equal to 10 times the result of his lifting skill check in kilograms. There is no +5 difficulty modifier for being unskilled if PC has no training. (Ex. PC is trying to lift a 180lb. stone <82kg>, he needs a 9 on his lifting check). 1kg is equal to 2.205lbs.

 

Weights on rollers or wheels are divided by 100 for purposes of determining their lifting difficulty number if being pushed along a level, flat surface.

 

Rolling a Serious Failure on a lifting check means the PC has possibly hurt himself. Roll a Physique total vs. the weight’s difficulty number to determine the extent of injury with a maximum result of Wounded. If the PC was trying to hold up a massive object and failed his roll the object falls on him and may result in further consequences!

On a Critical Failure the same procedure is followed as above but there is a +4 modifier to the weight’s difficulty number.

 

 

In my games, a serious failure is one of 1-5 point and a 1 on the Wild die or a miss of 6+ without a 1 on the wild die. A critical failure is a miss of 6+ AND a 1 on the wild die.

 

I'm sure everyone has theirown take on this. This just happens to be mine. :)

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I dont use maxes at all, at one point I used 5d, but stopped bothering. If someone wants to spend a lot of their starting dice on Str (or anything), eh, why not

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Would that be for lifting the weight over the character's head, though? My research did include "clean & jerk" winners, but also "deadlift" record holders like Andy Bolton of the UK (457.5 kg/1009 lb) and raw deadlift (a deadlift performed without the aid of a deadlift suit) at 426 kg (939 lbs) by Konstantin Konstantinovs - typically when my players want their characters to lift something, they're referring to getting it off the ground, not necessarily over their heads.

 

For "clean and jerk" efforts, I think you've got a very good system there. Maybe a different multiplier for deadlift?

Edited by Lee Torres

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One other idea, and I typically hesitate to introduce rules variations for one-off circumstances, would be to have the lifting skill act as a "roll & keep" pool for weightlifting, so if a person had a STR of 4D and a lifting skill of 4D (total of 8D), they'd roll 8D and keep the best 4, and use your system outlined above. The roll & keep aspect would limit characters to the confines of their own physical strength, but lifting would let them hit their maximums more easily (i.e., someone with 2D+2 STR and 4D Lifting would be better than someone with only 2D+2 attribute and no skill the vast majority of the time).

 

Possibly, for a Legend variant, have each success equal 100 pounds, and if the character got 6 successes lifting a 600 pound weight, then they succeed (barely). I'd need to crunch success levels to modify that for D6 Classic...

Edited by Lee Torres

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The problem I have with explaining 3D is twice as good as 2D, etc, is that the numbers don't actually support it. An average roll of 7 on two dice is not half an average roll of 10.5 on three. The difficulty numbers also don't support it either. What the numbers do support is the general *difficulty* in achieving a 4D versus a 2D, etc. It's a small difference, but I think it's important to realize that a step of one dice does not provide twice the effect, mechanically or in terms of fluff.

 

I generally support having no cap on stats, as long as I'm using mechanics which simulate "90% of the effort goes into the last 10% of gain" so to speak. If someone wants to spend points on raising stats well beyond what's normal, they do so at a much less efficient rate, as well as with less return on their investment.

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And in respect to the lifting skill, I've always felt it should never have been used. I'm not quite sure how someone can get better at lifting things without it being directly related to strength, aside from basic safety measures. And don't get me started on lifting being used for damage...

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The problem I have with explaining 3D is twice as good as 2D, etc, is that the numbers don't actually support it. An average roll of 7 on two dice is not half an average roll of 10.5 on three. The difficulty numbers also don't support it either. What the numbers do support is the general *difficulty* in achieving a 4D versus a 2D, etc. It's a small difference, but I think it's important to realize that a step of one dice does not provide twice the effect, mechanically or in terms of fluff.

 

Good point - I was referring more to the D6 Legend variant listed above (in post #4), and in that case the dice follow the chart - but strictly speaking, for "Classic D6" you're absolutely correct. All of those modifications sort of grew over the decade or so before the Purgatory Core raised the maximum attribute to 5D, so it was an attempt to fit observed human performance in the arena of strength-related tasks into a scale maxing out at 4D.

Edited by Lee Torres

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And in respect to the lifting skill, I've always felt it should never have been used. I'm not quite sure how someone can get better at lifting things without it being directly related to strength, aside from basic safety measures. And don't get me started on lifting being used for damage...

 

Most of the variants regarding strength/lifting I've come up with don't use it either. I was trying (above) to factor it in without it making things crazy, but as I said, I'm not thrilled with introducing a single instance where a roll & keep mechanic is used when it isn't utilized anywhere else. But I quite agree with you that having a huge difference between someone with a strength of 5D and someone with a strength of 5D and a lifting skill of, say, 4D seems quite absurd on the face of it.

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@asmkm22 & @Lee Torres:

Strength & Lifting are not synonomous. Just because a person is strong does not mean they have developed the basic skills of correctly lifting an object. Is it easier? For sure, and hence why a Character has more Strength dice. But if a Character has less Strength and knows how to properly lift an object, they are more likely to do it some sort of training. Take for example the popular G4 show, Ninja Warrior. Plenty of contestants are both strong and agile, as is demonstrated by many hopeful medal-winning olympians who attempt the courses, but without honing the skills needed to properly maneuver and move through the courses and apply them, a person's overall fitness means much less. Lifting, albeit not extraordinarily complex, is still something that proper training can improve.

 

Can a Character with a 2d and 1d lift a car? Yes and No. Its ridiculous by any standard of normalcy, however in the heat of a moment people have been recorded in lifting large heavy objects, like a bus just enough to get a child free - adrenaline. But in a game, especially games based on the c6 system, its all fiction, fantasy, and science fiction. Nothing actually has to apply to the real world entirely. A player can roll a wild die, and that wild die can roll a 6 several times in a row, and within the confines of the game, the Character does lift the car, but the GM can confine that success to, you lift the car off the ground, but not over your head, as its just too much weight. A good GM will make something that complicated and difficult a series of rolls, the first being to even lift the car, the second being the lift and toss where the Character "oomphs" it a little more to get underneath it, and another roll to actually rise into the air while balancing the car on one's shoulders. That's 3 successive rolls, burning tons of points, for what purpose? Game mechanics can be stretched and moved, but the common sense of any Skill and Attribute combo do need to rely on the GM and the bounds they set for "reality" in a game.

 

When we made Cinema6, we argued over making a universal Athletics Skill, but this did not happen do to the fact that when someone is Athletic, they're not neccessarily good all every aspect of Athleticism. hence the divided Skill sets.

 

- J. Elliot

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Thanks for helping to clarify the discussion, J Elliot! What I'm getting at with the "Roll & Keep" concept is that lifting as a skill is useful, in that lifting something incorrectly can result in damage to the body, but in the current iteration of the rules, someone with a Strength of 5D and a lifting skill of 3D or higher (say a specialization in "Clean and Jerk" of another 3D, to make a legal build) can lift a lot more than somebody with a Strength of 5D alone. To go with your example of the car, with the Wild Die factored in, a typical person with a Strength of 2D and no lifting skill can indeed lift a car, or lift a school bus off of a child trapped beneath, and for purposes of cinematic reality we can call it "Hysterical Strength" or "Adrenaline" but barring the use of Character Points or a Fate Point it's really not a very likely outcome.

 

The Strength attribute typically will reflect the Brute Force that a character can bring to bear on a physical object, and lifting skill makes that physical object less likely to hurt the character through mishandling. In competitive lifting, technique is very definitely important, but should it (and I'll use Cinema 6 baselines here) allow a character with 6D Strength and 6D Lift to lift twice the weight of a character with 6D Strength and no Lift skill? While some might say it does, I'd argue that it would allow the character with 6D Strength and 6D Lift to do it faster, do it without injury to their spine (or anywhere else if they lost control of the lifted object and dropped it on themselves), but twice the weight? I have an issue with that.

 

Finally, I agree with you about Athleticism as a skill - it's far too broad for most iterations of D6 - swimming, broad jump, throwing a javelin, and dozens of other things can be lumped into that category, and each one requires different knowledge and different physical capabilities. If a game narrows down a list of skills to 12 or so and also makes "Firearms" one skill, meaning the character can use with equal ability a handgun, a shotgun, a submachine gun, or a sniper rifle, then I might buy into "Athletics" simply for the sake of simplicity, but in a game where everything else gets broken out, I'd object to Athletics being lumped together in that manner.

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@Lee Torres:

 

Agreed. Its about having an understanding of how to set DRs:

For instance, in Cinema6 a GM could set a base scale:

Effortless, 1/2x Body Weight (1d)

Easy, 1x Body Weight (2d)

Moderate, 2x Body Weight (3d)

Hard, 3x Body Weight (4d-5d)

Complex, 4x Body Weight (6d-8d)

Epic, 5x Body Weight (9d-12d)

 

6d versus 12d doesn't really provide that much more of a benefit. The same GM could also dictate that to lift anything over 5x Body Weight is just going to require spending of Cinema Points for Cinematic Sequences or events, for the "Hysterical Strength" you noted. Cinema6 handles this with the Special Abilities. We could just create one easily for general Character use:

 

Boost of Might, Cost: 10.

Description: Your Character is suddenly capable of releasing a burst of Strength to lift extremely heavy objects up to 7x Body Weight.

(+3d Lift)

 

Then whenever the Character tries to Lift something, spending a Cinema Point provides the Boost of Might benefit as desired, and the GM already has a set limitation for the Special Ability and subsequent results.

These appropriations in any system based on d6 could easily avoid complications in scaling. I agree whole heartedly that 12d should not be able to lift twice as much as 6d. Ultimately the ruling and handling within a game relies upon a GM and how they understand the weaknesses inherent in not setting limitations on players who desire to abuse them.

 

- J. Elliot

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