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fjw70

Torg -- how does it work?

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Do you recall about how many you would get for a typical three act adventure? You should have been getting 1-3 at the end of Acts One and Two and then somewhere between 9-12 at the end of the adventure if I'm remembering the guidelines correctly. And that's not counting any extras for cashing in Drama cards and if anyone played a Glory card.

 

I remember getting like 5-6 possibilities at the end of an adventure, which was only enough to refresh the ones you spent during the adventure. I don't recall ever increasing any of my character's skills after 3-4 play sessions.

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They aren't automatically far greater than skill. That's the point. I had characters with +8 skills in addition to their attribute, and a Possibility adds around 10 on the average.

 

I really do say what I mean.

 

Except that such characters are also the most likely to be skill starved because they have more things they need to spend skill points on than the more primative, and given how frequently you need to check for that, 5% is plenty. If it happens at the wrong time (i.e. when you're out of Possibilities) its also a severe problem.

 

Automatic, no. Extremely likely, yes. You also need to remember that due to the wacky non-linear increases in roll effects that +skills is also less favorable.

 

The problem is, in our game, everyone is walking around with 15-20pp's, just in case. Because everyone knows, that when bad things happen, the only thing that will save you are those PP's. This is moreso than any other game I have ever played.

 

This is just one problem, the bigger problem being the massive unbalancing basic theorem behind the game. Guys with swords and guys with plasma rifles.... doesn't work well.

 

In our group I am from the Cyberpapcy where my template started with GWI Armor of Gods and the Hellfire Plasma Rifle (30 dmg, 4meter radius). Another guy is from the Underworld place, and has a sword. He can hit me with that sword all day long and never really hurt me. I shoot him once, he is seriously f'd up.

 

Its just a mess.

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I remember getting like 5-6 possibilities at the end of an adventure, which was only enough to refresh the ones you spent during the adventure. I don't recall ever increasing any of my character's skills after 3-4 play sessions.

Definitely sounds like you guys were being shorted on your awards. Did you get an award at the end of each act? Those are supposed to refresh the ones you spent so that the final adventure award leaves you with extra.

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Definitely sounds like you guys were being shorted on your awards. Did you get an award at the end of each act? Those are supposed to refresh the ones you spent so that the final adventure award leaves you with extra.

 

I remember getting rewards only at the very end of the adventure. We'd play from 4-6 hours and the GM would only give new possibilities at the very end.

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I remember getting rewards only at the very end of the adventure. We'd play from 4-6 hours and the GM would only give new possibilities at the very end.

 

I'm pretty sure they were supposed to be given out per Act at least.

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I'm pretty sure they were supposed to be given out per Act at least.

 

They were. The Adventure Book (p.11) goes into this. Roughly, Characters are expected to spend 3-4 possibilities per act, while being awarded 1-3 each act (except for the last). At the end of the adventure, they should get 6-12 possibilities, for a net gain of 5-6 from the start of the adventure.

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They were. The Adventure Book (p.11) goes into this. Roughly, Characters are expected to spend 3-4 possibilities per act, while being awarded 1-3 each act (except for the last). At the end of the adventure, they should get 6-12 possibilities, for a net gain of 5-6 from the start of the adventure.

 

That was what I remembered, but given its been more than a decade, I wasn't sure.

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They were. The Adventure Book (p.11) goes into this. Roughly, Characters are expected to spend 3-4 possibilities per act, while being awarded 1-3 each act (except for the last). At the end of the adventure, they should get 6-12 possibilities, for a net gain of 5-6 from the start of the adventure.

 

That, as a premise to a game, is retarded.

 

You are expected to expend the vast majority of your earned experience in effect every game? Just to survive? What happens if you roll poorly when you use one, or when you run out, you just die? Then you get into the mechanic of how they get used. Its great when you use them and the NPC just uses another to counter, great waste.

 

The mechanic of the game is simply broken.

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You are expected to expend the vast majority of your earned experience in effect every game?

 

Not really. New characters start with 10 possibilities and are expected to use about that many an adventure. However, they get more back in awards. The extra possibilities (beyond the first 10 or so) are normally spent to improve skills.

 

Then you get into the mechanic of how they get used. Its great when you use them and the NPC just uses another to counter, great waste.

 

The vast majority of the foes the PCs face aren't possibility-rated and thus have no possibilities to spend.

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Quick version of TORG rules...

 

The only thing that matters is how many possibility points you currently have. This is my largest gripe. No matter what your skill is, no matter how good you are at something, the guy that throws a possibility at the same thing and you don't, he will do it better.

 

Combined with the guys with swords against guys with plasma rifles....

 

Yea... the guys with swords have a prayer.

 

Possibilities are the only thing that matters, if you houserule that away you limit it, but it is still there...

 

IMO the problem with the game is the premise that fanboys in the gaming world have always had wet dreams over. They all want to use the same character in every setting. Fantasy, horror, modern, sci-fi... Then you realize the game simply won't be balanced...ever.

 

That is a silly position... As to your argument that it is better for roleplaying, its absurd. If you like the idea of roleplaying, put the setting in another mechanic. Mechanically the thing is broken, from a setting it may appeal to some.

 

1) Possibility is far greater than a skill. Moreover, they can eliminate things that have no refute. Don't want to take damage? Done. Want to do mroe damage or hit? Done.

 

...I would argue you should just play without dice at all. If you just want to roleplay everything, go ahead, but the mechanics here are a mess and don't support it.

 

You also need to remember that due to the wacky non-linear increases in roll effects that +skills is also less favorable.

 

...the bigger problem being the massive unbalancing basic theorem behind the game. Guys with swords and guys with plasma rifles.... doesn't work well.

 

...Its just a mess.

 

That, as a premise to a game, is retarded.

 

...The mechanic of the game is simply broken.

 

bave, you have very succinctly told us what is wrong with TORG. Please tell how to "fix" it.

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bave, you have very succinctly told us what is wrong with TORG. Please tell how to "fix" it.

 

I am not sure there is a way to fix the game system while still keeping it "Torg". The idea of having 5-8 genres all existing in the same game is one that is riddled with enormous problems.

 

Honestly, the game has more issues than any other game I have ever played. There are less areas that don't need alot of work than those that do.

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Not really. New characters start with 10 possibilities and are expected to use about that many an adventure. However, they get more back in awards. The extra possibilities (beyond the first 10 or so) are normally spent to improve skills.

 

The vast majority of the foes the PCs face aren't possibility-rated and thus have no possibilities to spend.

 

Every time I have played has been a few acts, which at the end of the entire gaming session we might get 6-10 possibilities. We had one game where some a$$clown made a reality storm which ended up sucking possibility points out of people are a blender-ific rate.

 

Ahh yea, that was great. Some characters burning through 20+ PP's to get 6 back.

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While I'm not going to get into some of the other issues with Torg, I've found in ever game that did the contrary (as I noted, it was something Greg Gordon loved to do in his designs) separating out advancement points and metagame modification points in awards makes some problems far less severe.

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While I'm not going to get into some of the other issues with Torg, I've found in ever game that did the contrary (as I noted, it was something Greg Gordon loved to do in his designs) separating out advancement points and metagame modification points in awards makes some problems far less severe.

 

Oh, that will help, but the point hten becomes that you are houseruling almost everything in the core rules. It still fails to resolve the problems with inherent cosm balance.

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Oh, that will help, but the point hten becomes that you are houseruling almost everything in the core rules. It still fails to resolve the problems with inherent cosm balance.

 

While I'll agree that, in theory, this is a potentially large problem, I have no idea if it's really that much of a problem in practice.

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Oh, that will help, but the point hten becomes that you are houseruling almost everything in the core rules. It still fails to resolve the problems with inherent cosm balance.

 

You're really only houseruling one thing; the use of Possibilities for advancement. It doesn't have to really impact much else.

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You're really only houseruling one thing; the use of Possibilities for advancement. It doesn't have to really impact much else.

 

Doesn't solve the underlying problem with cosm balance.

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Doesn't solve the underlying problem with cosm balance.

 

It has an awful lot to do with balancing the system, though.

 

I don't think its going to be possible to balance every aspect of cosm power, though you get some of it by having some paranormalities available in some and not others; that's why you have to really watch for erosion with concepts like some of the Nile Empire mage/priest/wierd scientist/powered hero combos I've seen.

 

But in the end, you're not going to be able to completely balance combat between all the types, and if that's your aim, the setting is fundamentally going to frustrate you.

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IMO the problem with the game is the premise that fanboys in the gaming world have always had wet dreams over. They all want to use the same character in every setting. Fantasy, horror, modern, sci-fi. Now you can take your uber-character you have had since you are 8 and roll him from one setting to another. It reminds me of D&D when they made adventures that gave characters lasers and firearms, look its funny for a minute. Then you realize the game simply won't be balanced...ever.

I've always thought of this premise as one of Torg's great virtues: For new players I don't have to explain the expansive metastory behind Torg, I just ask them what they kind of character they want to play, and then I work from there. Just about any character idea can work in one of Torg's realities, so every player gets to have their uber-character and play it too.

 

It isn't necessary to have balance between the characters unless they're fighting one another, and that isn't what Torg is about. Torg is cinematic, and so there will always be one character that takes the spotlight while the other characters are out of focus. The challenge for GMs is to give opportunities for each player to have their moments to shine, while keeping the story interesting for everyone. If one player thinks that he can dominate the game by having the biggest gun, then it's time to have a mystery to solve, a chase to run, or actual roleplaying:eek:. An argument about whether a ninja or a technodemon was the more powerful character would be moot if both were trapped in an ancient temple's pit trap, that neither of them could escape because they had spent all their adds on combat skills. Let them be resuced by a girl who can decipher the clues because she has the Scholar(archaeology) skill.

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I've always thought of this premise as one of Torg's great virtues: For new players I don't have to explain the expansive metastory behind Torg, I just ask them what they kind of character they want to play, and then I work from there. Just about any character idea can work in one of Torg's realities, so every player gets to have their uber-character and play it too.

 

It isn't necessary to have balance between the characters unless they're fighting one another, and that isn't what Torg is about. Torg is cinematic, and so there will always be one character that takes the spotlight while the other characters are out of focus. The challenge for GMs is to give opportunities for each player to have their moments to shine, while keeping the story interesting for everyone. If one player thinks that he can dominate the game by having the biggest gun, then it's time to have a mystery to solve, a chase to run, or actual roleplaying:eek:. An argument about whether a ninja or a technodemon was the more powerful character would be moot if both were trapped in an ancient temple's pit trap, that neither of them could escape because they had spent all their adds on combat skills. Let them be resuced by a girl who can decipher the clues because she has the Scholar(archaeology) skill.

 

That's great and all in theory, but in practice it is awful. How fun is when you come to a combat scene and it is dominated every single time by the high tech axiom characters. What can the guy with a 1911 .45 do when their are plasma rifles firing around.

 

While I agree balance between characters isnt necessary since they are not opponents, it is necessary when some characters have very little they can do in combat effectively and another simply dominates it.

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That's great and all in theory, but in practice it is awful. How fun is when you come to a combat scene and it is dominated every single time by the high tech axiom characters. What can the guy with a 1911 .45 do when their are plasma rifles firing around.

Get a plasma rifle for himself? Even if it's a four-case contradiction, if that's what it takes then that's what you use.

 

Know that the tables will be turned the next time they go adventuring in a Nile pure zone? Or when they're in close combat and blasting away with area effect plasma bursts would mean frying the PCs as well as the bad guys?

 

Smile because he's not the one melting his own brain by having to make long-range contradiction checks every time he pulls the trigger? (Because plasma weapons create LRCs when they hit and explode, same as if you were tossing grenades.)

 

Perform approved actions, build up a good card pool and either help out the gun bunny with trades or pull off some amazing moves of his own by using a bunch of his cards at once? It's amazing what you can do with a Player's Call on a Taunt or Maneuver.

 

I'm sorry that you've played in games where the guy with the biggest gun got to have all the fun, but in my games even when I've had lopsided power levels among the PCs most everyone still found ways in which their characters could usefully contribute during fight scenes.

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Get a plasma rifle for himself?

 

Don't take a sidearm to a heavy weapons fight.

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So, without quoting everyone above... what I'm hearing is:

 

You'd better be in your home cosm if you want to use any of your abilities...

If not, then you'd better have a ton of Possibilities saved up...

But don't spend all your Possibilities on using your character's chosen abilities cuz you need to counter the Villains and (god forbid) increase your skills/abilities at some point.

If you're not a high-tech gun bunny, you'd better become one really fast...(which contradicts Catstacker's "play whatever you like" statement)

Except you'll fry your brain if you do that because of contradictions...

So the suggestion is for the PC to play second fiddle to the gun bunny or whomever is in their home cosm...

 

Someone please explain to me how any of this is fun?

 

It's not fun because I experienced it first hand...

I wanted to play a superhero from the Nile Empire. (Use super powers! or be a gadgeteer! or both!).

Except we never played in my home cosm (Cyberpapcy, Aysle and Nippon, if memory serves).

And I never dared spend any possibilities (to use my X-Ray vision or allow my gadget Ray Gun to work) because possibilities were so rare.

So, most of the time I stood around like a mundane with my thumb up my backside.

 

In the end, Torg wasn't fun for me and I haven't played it since. (What's the point in playing a character that can't even use his basic abilities 90% of the time?)

I hardly felt like the "Heroic Storm Knight!" that was advertised.

 

PS - Now I know why the powergamer in our group played a Cyberknight from the Cyberpapcy with a plasma rifle. He probably boosted up the one stat that let him completely ignore the contradiction mechanic.

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But don't spend all your Possibilities on using your character's chosen abilities cuz you need to counter the Villains and (god forbid) increase your skills/abilities at some point.

 

The villains shouldn't have that many possibilities to spend in an average adventure.

 

If you're not a high-tech gun bunny, you'd better become one really fast...(which contradicts Catstacker's "play whatever you like" statement)

 

The tech doesn't have to be that "high". A broadsword is not close to an even match for an AK 47.

 

And I never dared spend any possibilities (to use my X-Ray vision or allow my gadget Ray Gun to work) because possibilities were so rare.

 

This sounds like a GM problem more than a problem with the game.

 

PS - Now I know why the powergamer in our group played a Cyberknight from the Cyberpapcy with a plasma rifle. He probably boosted up the one stat that let him completely ignore the contradiction mechanic.

 

AFAIK, there is no ability that allows a character to ignore a contradiction check. High reality skill makes it easier for him to reconnect but has no bearing on if he disconnects in the first place.

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The villains shouldn't have that many possibilities to spend in an average adventure.

 

Maybe they "shouldn't" but sometimes they do and the PCs are expected to counter with their own Possibilities at the expense of being able to use their cosm abilities or improve their skills/abilities.

 

The tech doesn't have to be that "high". A broadsword is not close to an even match for an AK 47.

 

I think you missed my point. If I want to play a Knight from Asyle, I'd better ditch my sword and find that AK-47 as soon as possible? If that's the case, then why would I even bother playing a Knight in the first place? (Assuming I cared anything about staying in character or cosm.)

 

Stay true to your character and have no chance in combat vs. Ditch any pretense of roleplaying and pick up a higher tech weapon so your character can be effective in combat.

 

This sounds like a GM problem more than a problem with the game.

 

So I've been hearing... Though, decoupling xp rewards from in-game usage would seriously help. CPs in Star Wars are handy during the game, but not nearly as important as Possibilities in Torg.

 

AFAIK, there is no ability that allows a character to ignore a contradiction check. High reality skill makes it easier for him to reconnect but has no bearing on if he disconnects in the first place.

 

Maybe not ignore, but if he's got a high enough Reality score, the contradiction check becomes trivial.

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