The Gaming Market

[cmturner2]

@ Skeloric

WotC plays in a somewhat different market than the rest of the smaller publishers out there. D&D has momentum and branding that far surpasses all competitors. Dungeons & Dragons is known by large numbers of people outside the "gaming" circle, the same cannot be said of any other pencil & paper RPG.

Rifts, Torg, Savage Worlds, Shadowrun, Gurps (etc.) have caused confused blinking from most people that I mention them to outside of my gaming groups (and to a few in them!)... and it always ends with "Oh, you mean like Dungeons & Dragons?"

So yes, I do believe economic downturns will affect the gaming world at large more than it might WotC. However I can guarantee that WotC will make changes to their business strategy as the economy turns, just as any other intelligent business would.

Someone said "Dungeons & Dragons is the RPG market.", while not true, it's not a bad generalization for someone standing outside.

[Roger Calver]

Of course the market place effect the sales of D&D and WotC in a different way to other companies, size and visablity from outside revinue helps them out.

Its due to D&D being the first RPG and so has that reputation, computer games and the films also have expanded its market visablity.

D&D are RPG's from an outsiders point of view.

[asmkm22]

I still don't think the market is all that bad right now, in terms of RPG's. I think the 'brick and mortar' market sucks, but that's due to retailers having a hard time adjusting to a changing landscape when it comes to RPG's. I'm pretty sure RPG's are more popular today than ever, partly due to WoW, partly due to 3E, and partly due to this new acceptance of 'being nerdy is cool'. The last ten years worth of sci-fi and fantasy movies hasn't hurt the image any, either.

[imported_Magman]

My take on the market is there just seems to be too many distractions in normal society that is making RPG's obsolete.

Technology is the biggest killer. Game Consoles and computers with the internet has sent RPG's as we knew them in a downward spiral of disaster. Sure RPG's are super popular now, but only really online. Games like Wow and RPG's like Torg are two absolutely un-comparative monsters with two totally different experiences. One you play when you have an hour free to acquire the best possible equipment and lots gold. The other, sit down order a pizza with some friends, have a great time laughing, talking and losing yourself in a fantasy world.

The youth of today much rather flip that computer switch on then anything else. Paper? Dice? Actual RP'ing ?!?

Then there's the whole card genre games taking a chuck out of the industry. Board games or miniatures taking some more of them as well.

Society as it stands; the quote "Kids grow up so much faster now" is so true. Thank TV, movies, Pop Stars or the milk. Teenagers are out there, doing their things with their crowds at an earlier age them ever before. RPG isn't high on their list for being cool. The years normally when they would get sucked into the industry, they are worry about dating, sex, cars, hair cuts, and mastering games like Rock Band and Halo.

The true fact is RPGs is only remembered by the old generations. New blood finds their way into the pot with a slight trickle here and there. It is what it is. I do not see it getting any better anytime soon.

[Arbor_Productions]

My take on the market is there just seems to be too many distractions in normal society that is making RPG's obsolete.

Technology is the biggest killer. Game Consoles and computers with the internet has sent RPG's as we knew them in a downward spiral of disaster. Sure RPG's are super popular now, but only really online. Games like Wow and RPG's like Torg are two absolutely un-comparative monsters with two totally different experiences. One you play when you have an hour free to acquire the best possible equipment and lots gold. The other, sit down order a pizza with some friends, have a great time laughing, talking and losing yourself in a fantasy world.

The youth of today much rather flip that computer switch on then anything else. Paper? Dice? Actual RP'ing ?!?

Then there's the whole card genre games taking a chuck out of the industry. Board games or miniatures taking some more of them as well.

Society as it stands; the quote "Kids grow up so much faster now" is so true. Thank TV, movies, Pop Stars or the milk. Teenagers are out there, doing their things with their crowds at an earlier age them ever before. RPG isn't high on their list for being cool. The years normally when they would get sucked into the industry, they are worry about dating, sex, cars, hair cuts, and mastering games like Rock Band and Halo.

The true fact is RPGs is only remembered by the old generations. New blood finds their way into the pot with a slight trickle here and there. It is what it is. I do not see it getting any better anytime soon.

As a publisher, that's about my feelings and impressions on it, too.

The only reason my 15 year old games on Fridays (and the 8 and 10 year old on occassion) is because my wife and I, our friends, and their aunt all do. If not for our weekly games, my teenager would have no knowledge or real interest in role-playing. He plays WoW (of course, along with his friends), plays highschool football (along with his friends), and none of his friends play "D&D" (as RPGs are referred to by them) and have no interest in it. Their average expression in regards to the WoTC G4 news was: yawn.

They are more interested in DC Universe Online than any news of a DCU RPG (no, there isn't one, just making an example). They have more interest in Champions Online than the Champions RPG. And the Star Wars RPG? Nah. Give them Force Unleashed and the upcoming KOTOR MMO.

Sure, they've seen us game (some, anyway) and thought it was cool and looked like fun . . . but they are more comfortable behind the keyboard in WoW than face-to-face at the table.

Another issue with the new generation and the nature of technology.

Regards,

[skeloric]

None of that actually has a real positive feel to it.
Every RPG is obsolete except D&D -- the one and only RPG that actually deserved to become obsolete 10 years ago?

[Arbor_Productions]

Well, there really is not much of a real positive feel when one breaks it down.

The new generation is entering a different world than we did (I am 35 years old). As a teenager, I didn't have AIM, and MMOs, and all the social tech they have now. I wanted to see friends or talk to them, I physically got together with them or called them.

Even the entertainment tech was different back then. Graphics typically blew, and the big game system was . . . what? . . . Super Nintendo or Sega Genesis?

Back then I could spend $20 for a new game for a mediocre console, or for a RPG book to use with friends I physically saw often anyway.

I chose the RPGs.

Nowadays, we are asking them to buy a $40 RPG book. And, usually, several of them just to be able to play.

D&D, if you want the 4E core books for the entire set (Players, DM, Monsters) they are looking at $105.00 plus tax.

For Savage Worlds, $40 plus tax ($10 for the SWEX core book, $30 for a typical setting).

Plus the various dice they would need for everyone.

Compare that to Halo 3 to play on your X-Box Live. Or a MMO (even with the sub-fee) that you can play with all your friends from the comfort of each person's bedroom, at almost any time.

Then, with all the cable channels, all the internet distractions (again, AIM, MySpace, Forums, et cetera), we want them to then take time to craft adventures to play with their friends?

Not gonna happen in the ways we are used to. Their world is much faster paced, much more connected right from their own homes, and much more distracting with all the cool graphics and other things we didn't have in our time.

Basically, from my perspective, their teenage world is almost an alien environment compared to mine.

[skeloric]

Basically, from my perspective, their teenage world is almost an alien environment compared to mine.
I know the feeling.
One day I mentioned in mixed company how I would spend most of days in the summer READING BOOKS!
I got blank stares and incredulous exclamations of, "DOING WHAT???"
Then I mentioned that our only gaming console was an Atari 2600 until I was almost out of school -- the NES was in '85 as I recall?
They looked blank as they have no clue what an "Atari 2600" might be.
Then I capped it all off by mentioning always having a quarter tucked away in case I needed to use a pay phone and they again exclaimed, "A WHAT???"

I hate getting old.
Its like I am living in some weird zoo on an alien planet.

[Arbor_Productions]

I know the feeling.
One day I mentioned in mixed company how I would spend most of days in the summer READING BOOKS!
I got blank stares and incredulous exclamations of, "DOING WHAT???"
Then I mentioned that our only gaming console was an Atari 2600 until I was almost out of school -- the NES was in '85 as I recall?
They looked blank as they have no clue what an "Atari 2600" might be.
Then I capped it all off by mentioning always having a quarter tucked away in case I needed to use a pay phone and they again exclaimed, "A WHAT???"

I hate getting old.
Its like I am living in some weird zoo on an alien planet.

So true. My sons marvel at how I can beat them at a video game. Granted, I don't play console games, really, I'm not a video gamer. MMOs are about as far as I go. But, give me an hour to get used to one, and they're in trouble.

I unpacked the old Sega Genesis. My 15 year old (about 11 or 12 at the time) got his ass kicked by the games. See . . . no memory card to save as you go, no "easy mode". Even Sonic the Hedgehog, you learned to play, or you did the same damned levels until your eyes bled.

Yeah, changed his perspective.

Oh course, on another side note . . . I'm still trying to figure out which teenager taught my 10 year old son how to tea-bag a corpse in Halo 3.

I discovered he knew that the first time he managed to grenade me to death. :eek:

Fortunately, all 3 of my kids love to read, though. My 8 year old daughter is currently on a Teddy Rosevelt kick. My 10 year old is reading the Harry Potter series. And my eldest is reading one of my Roger Zelazny books. So, it isn't as if the video games are their life.

But, normal tech distraction aside for the current generation of teenagers . . . someone explain to me how any of us in this industry can expect to acquire them as players when the damned games (from D&D on down) are just so expensive to get into as a customer. It's like wondering why the kids don't read comics anymore, when the average cover price is $3 an issue now.

And sadly, we can't really lower the cover prices when art is so expensive (artists need to eat, too, even the foreign ones), printing costs keep rising (plus the shipping to deliver from the printer to the warehouse), and distributors still take 55%-57% of your MSRP as their payment for carrying your product.

PDF sales aren't anywhere near good enough, even without the printing overhead.

If RPGs are going to survive, technology needs to be embraced better than it is. And that doesn't mean a subscription service for D&D Insider, either.

[skeloric]

The problem with PDFs (must not grognard.... must not grognard...) is actually several problems.

COST
The PDF only costs on average about 15% less than a physical book yet the big drive to put out PDFs is supposedly the high price to publish a physical book -- a high price not even remotely reflected in the PDF's cost which should then be much cheaper if that "exorbitant" publishing AND warehousing cost was truly so exorbitant.

ACCESSIBILITY AND EASE OF CONVENIENCE
PDF usage assumes computer usage, which then means that one must drag around a computer everywhere.
A book requires no fancy gadgetry and is accessible when technology is not.
So as a PDF, one is limited in when and where one can read it.

BACK TO COST ONCE AGAIN
The computer itself leads back into price as they aren't cheap and it is best to own a desktop computer rather than a laptop as the only computer in the house and the option of buying both is more than a little exorbitant.
Even a specialized "Reader Device" which acts as a book perspective laptop dedicated specifically to viewing PDFs and other digital "book media" (such as "LIT" files and perhaps "CBR" files) is alas no cheap alternative at $300 a unit.

PRINTING BY PUBLISHER VS PRINTING BY CONSUMER
If the PDF is then intended to be printed by the consumer, one has only hidden the publishing cost from the consumer who is stuck with the details of publishing instead and must then factor in such cost in the cost of the PDF.
Indeed, the cost can actually INCREASE over that of an honest publisher who just publishes the product instead of utilizing the cost of self publishing like a hidden charge.

Its just a medium that is not easily embraced by those who are TRULY worried by cost or accessibility.
Its just not a medium that can honestly be deemed to have "arrived" in the "Its time has come" sense.
Instead it is in that distressing era of transition like the early automobile when everyone still found a horse much more convenient, accessible, and affordable.
I know the PDF's defenders will hotly contest all of these points but that's what they are all about naturally and thus their efforts should be weighed with the utmost suspicion as they are trying to overturn an already tested and proven medium that has been so completely appropriate for mankind's needs for hundreds of years.
They are the terrorists warring against the status quo, so naturally they must utilize every single arguing method to their best benefit.

[asmkm22]

I know the PDF's defenders will hotly contest all of these points but that's what they are all about naturally and thus their efforts should be weighed with the utmost suspicion as they are trying to overturn an already tested and proven medium that has been so completely appropriate for mankind's needs for hundreds of years.
They are the terrorists warring against the status quo, so naturally they must utilize every single arguing method to their best benefit.

If you're going to call me a terrorist, of all things, I'm going to call you a bum who can't hold down a job.

[skeloric]

But I am a bum who can't hold down a job.
You got to try harder.

[slink]

PDF sales aren't anywhere near good enough, even without the printing overhead.
D'oh! You mentioned the "P"-word.
Now he'll dance for a whole hour... ;)

[Roger Calver]

While truth PDF sales are not as healthy as print sales they do give you an extra income than just pure print sales, also as the PDF is created in the print process and most web hosts have the capacity for electronic sales it as near as a cost free sales avenue.

If you other both the classic print and the newer PDF sales side by side you get the best of both worlds, also with the constant bugbear of errata thats an old gremlin its easy to update the PDF to fix where print requires a new run of and updated posted.

POD is also now at the stage of near or as good as traditional B&W printed standards, Lulu and others allow for a direct to consumer market place and keeps the normal overheads down, downside is of course the lower returns from sales but you can update just like PDF on a site like Lulu and so the customer has the latest revisions at hand.

Rog.

[Stormchild]

When I went to cons some years earlier, I used to carry tons of Torg material, and of course another RPG just in case. Today I only carry a Laptop after I scanned all my Torg books (only for private usage of course). Currently I am thinking about buying a subnotebook and decreasing the weight further. I think this is the future of RPG, carry tons of material in just one subnotebook or something similar. The wireless access is also becoming available everywhere and with flatrates. So you can have access to databases wherever you are. Some years ago, it was rare even for the Orga to use Laptops, today this is fairly standard. What I want to say is, don't spit on PDFs, they are the future.

[Roger Calver]

Also for the developmental side of gaming, PDF's are great to have.

For me not having as many Traveller books around me but accessable from my laptop in a bonus.

[Stormchild]

Complaining about the youth is as old as language. I even read a text of Plato (or was it some other old greek?) about how lazy and uninterested todays youth was.

Just remember, RPG was not a wide-spread hobby in our youth (I am 42, by the way, so I could observe the development of the hobby nearly from the start). The core of RPG-gamers was not 11-16 years old but they where students. In fact the hobby started at universities and not at schools. It spread into schools soon but was seen there as being rather nerdy. Today, I think you are not considered to be a nerd if you play pen and paper RPG, instead they view you as being a little bit weird and maybe old-fashioned.

But still I meet young players at cons. Where do they come from? Mostly they play with their older brothers or are brought into the hobby by older friends. I think it still is a student game but the big boost in the early 90s is over, when it was cool for school-kids to play RPGs (they are now hooked into MMORPG as they where into TCGs in the late 90s)

[Arbor_Productions]

Whether or not PDF sales give a healthy income, so to speak, depends on a company's business model.

Take, for example, M&M Superlink. A lot of M&M Superlink publishers do well in PDFs for what they put into a product. And a vast majority of your M&M Superlink are small PDF and POD publishers (and good ones, at that). In our case, however, not being a "PDF Publisher" in the sense that, that format is our main, our overhead tends to be a little heavier overall. 90% of what we do is designed for print and distribution in brick-and-mortar stores, with a PDF version pre-release.

Outside of Hardboiled: Harsh Tales and maybe two to four other very small products slated for 2008-2009, all of our stuff is print and three-tier distribution. Halt Evil Doer! Book of Villains. Winterweir. Hardboiled. Neo Earth. Inside Solitaire. War of the Dead. Et cetera.

So, for us, the PDF sales don't even begin to dent it, thus not a real focus.

Now, POD has come a long way. If we are doing a color book, we go off-set printing. If the interior is b/w, we go through LSI, a division of Ingram Books, for POD style printing based uoon distributor orders. As a matter of fact, two "big" publishers and several distributors turned us on to LSI, as it is what they use.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking PDF. I buy them, myself, as well as make them. It just doesn't form the core of our business.

The price of a PDF is also going to be determined by whether it is a Print/PDF joint release, or just a PDF.

In Harsh Tales, I can charge $14.95 for a 50-60 page PDF because the budget was designed around a PDF only release.

In the case of the Autumn Arbor Campaign Setting for M&M Superlink, the print was $34.95 and the PDF was $17.95. The reason being, the production budget and cost were based around a brick-and-mortar product release, so more money went into producing the book.

[The Game Guy]

They are more interested in DC Universe Online than any news of a DCU RPG (no, there isn't one, just making an example). They have more interest in Champions Online than the Champions RPG. And the Star Wars RPG? Nah. Give them Force Unleashed and the upcoming KOTOR MMO.

Regards,

There actually was a DC Universe RPG and I think it was put out by WEG. I have seen DCU books at my FLGS.

Just thought I would interject that.

[Roger Calver]

There was 2 different DC RPG's, IIRC Mayfair & WEG.

[The Game Guy]

skeloric- Watch how you word things and try to read over your posts before hitting submit

asmkm22- Please don't get into a name calling war with him please. If he really gets on your nerves just ignore him.

Sigh, everything was going well and no one had to be warned. Then, two people at once.

Let's try to keep it civil or I will close this thread. I don't want to have to, but I will if things get pushed too far

[The Game Guy]

There was 2 different DC RPG's, IIRC Mayfair & WEG.

I believe my FLGS has some of the DCU books from WEG. They also have a couple of the books left over from the last attempt at a marvel rpg

[imported_Magman]

Is it sad I live in the NYC area and there is only one real FLGS store I know of. A city of 8 million people, and one lonely store. Times are hard. But in their defense, they have thousands of books there. So why do I need more than one?

[Roger Calver]

I suppose that the joy of the internet, you can access store from around the world, still doesnt have to feel of a real FLGS.

[Liteft]

I buy everything online, beacuse well, my FLGS is neither friendly or local.

To keep this on-topic....... do shiny hard cover full color books really sell that much better than let's say a color softcover with B&W inside? Does fair to good quality art really affect sales vs. excellent art?

It seems to me (and please note I'm not in the biz so this is just what I look for) that there are several ways to lower costs and make more per unit. I don't buy an RPG for the art and personally know several artists that could do art for a book that would be perfectly acceptable to me...... and at a very low cost.

I want the writing..... everything else is window dressing.

[imported_Magman]

I do not have the numbers in front of me, but one would assume people are swayed by the eye candy of things. So my guess is, the pretty glossy pictures of a book would in theory sell better.

[Havard]

I certainly care about visuals and layout. That's not the only thing that affects whether I buy a product or not, but it does come into play. Full color is not neccessarily a good thing though. I prefer good B/W art to crappy color art. Color art is often more revealing to the artist's talent than what B/W art is.

I'd say illustrations are even more important if you are trying to sell me a concept that is a little different from what I am used to, since I might be having problems visualizing a highly original concept based on text alone. In Science Fiction, Art is even more important IMO, since Fantasy tropes are so much more well established, and sci fi games rarely want to present themselves as exact copies of well known movies etc.

Havard

[asmkm22]

I certainly care about visuals and layout. That's not the only thing that affects whether I buy a product or not, but it does come into play. Full color is not neccessarily a good thing though. I prefer good B/W art to crappy color art. Color art is often more revealing to the artist's talent than what B/W art is.

I'd say illustrations are even more important if you are trying to sell me a concept that is a little different from what I am used to, since I might be having problems visualizing a highly original concept based on text alone. In Science Fiction, Art is even more important IMO, since Fantasy tropes are so much more well established, and sci fi games rarely want to present themselves as exact copies of well known movies etc.

Havard

What bothers me the most in artwork is inconsistency. Look at nearly every well-received rpg product out there right now, and you'll find a "style" of artwork across it's products. It doesn't matter if it's black and white, or color, or even poor quality; as long as it's consistent, the product will benefit.

[Arbor_Productions]

There actually was a DC Universe RPG and I think it was put out by WEG. I have seen DCU books at my FLGS.

Just thought I would interject that.

Yep, aware of that. But I was speaking of currently produced, or announced to be in production, RPGs.

But in speaking of the past, I've played and owned both the DC Heroes RPG (Mayfair Games) and DC Universe RPG (Westend Games V2.0).

Sorry, but I'll take the old MEGS system over D6 DCU any day.

[The Game Guy]

Yep, aware of that. But I was speaking of currently produced, or announced to be in production, RPGs.

But in speaking of the past, I've played and owned both the DC Heroes RPG (Mayfair Games) and DC Universe RPG (Westend Games V2.0).

Sorry, but I'll take the old MEGS system over D6 DCU any day.

Well anything beats the crap resource system of the latest version of Marvel Univserse RPG.

My FLGS has plenty of copies of that

[The Game Guy]

Artwork is simi important to me (I do understand that for some it helps them get the setting), the actual layout is very important to me.

Bad layout makes it hard to read and can make me give up on a game fast.