The "Possibility Rating" of a COSM

[skeloric]

This was a single post, received with mild interest but never pursued further.
I've retroactively corrected it based upon a now excised paragraph as it could be added in without difficulty.


The "Possibility Rating" of a COSM
==================================

I'm beginning to think that Cosms should have a Possibility Rating that denotes the quality and quantity of Possibilities within the Cosm.

First and foremost, a Cosm can be Vibrant, Static, Dwindling or Plummeting.

Vibrant -- Use of Possibilities in a Cosm tend to increase the overall number of Possibilities.

Static -- Possibilities used return to the Cosm to be used again.

Dwindling -- Possibilities used are gone.

Plummeting -- Possibilities used actually destroy additional Possibilities.

Next a Cosm can be on some sort of numeric chart which might resemble an Axiom chart superficially.

0 -- Dead Cosm
This Cosm has no native Possibilities remaining.
The only Possibilities present are those brought from outside the Cosm.


Very Low number -- Fragile Cosm
This Cosm is teetering on the brink and may yet become a Dead Cosm.
(The Werewolf "Home Cosm" ["Kantovia"], most Cosms after a successful invasion by a High Lord)

Low Number -- Weak Cosm
This Cosm's Possibilities are so few that their need for retension/replenishment may significantly alter the nature of the Cosm.
(Tz'Ravok)

Moderate Number -- Average Cosm
Most other Cosms present in the game might originally qualify as this, however the Cosms of the High Lords have since moved up or down on the scale according to their successes.

High Number -- Plentiful Cosm
This Cosm is a banquet of opportunity and great wonders are often noted.
(Core Earth?)

Very High Number -- Saturated Cosm
The Possibilities are almost visible to Ords, they roam so plentifully in this Cosm.
Great Wonders and unbelievable success are almost commonplace.
(Not present yet though Core Earth could have JUMPED to this level at the beginning of the Possibility Wars...)

[Stormchild]

Good idea. What would be the rules governing these cosms? In some way WEG already used some kind of rules for that though they were never printed as rules per se. The world laws of Tz'Ravok seem to reflect this. As does the law of Prodigy and law of hope of Core Earth. How about making it easier for characters from high-Poss cosms to adapt (lower reconnection numbers, Bonus for reality storms) and harder for characters form low-Poss cosms?

[skeloric]

I like the notions and most of this came about due to the mentions of Tz'Ravok being so destitute of possibilities while Core Earth was so plentiful.
That was when it dawned on me that there was a whole range of options (almost used "possibilities" LOL) that the game never truly acknowledged.
As it stands however, implementing the idea could skew the game and I lack the means to test the new dynamics the concept introduces.

[skeloric]

As an addendum, Cosms of the invaders tend towards static (or perhaps dwindling) even according to the books and Tz'Ravok is perfect for a "Plummeting" Cosm.
Core Earth could be "Vibrant" (which explains almost nothing about its presentation) which would make it even more desirable to invade.

[Stormchild]

After some thoughts I think this idea is even more beautiful than I first realized. It could give answers to some lingering questions like:

1) Where do eternity shards come from?
2) How many eternity shards can be produced by a cosm?
3) How many Hardpoints can be produced by a cosm?
4) How strong are Hardpoints in a cosm?
6) How difficult is it to fill people with poss again - like in giving hope to people in Glory results.
7) How can Axioms advance?
8) How may individuals in a cosm develop the means to use Poss-mechanisms like Maelstrom bridges, stelae, Dimthreads (at least two ways are presented, the normal way High Lords used though without any explanation and the way Hachi-Mara created dimthreads, both include using Poss - I think - but High Lords use collected Poss while Hachi-Mara used Poss given freely and this leads to other questions)?
9) How can people give away their Poss freely?
10) How can raiders rip Poss? I don't mean stelae mechanics, they are presented in the rules, but is it possible to rip Poss in a different way (the Gaunt Man used one on Decker, I think, and the Mobius' Omegatron is another)
11) Additional Poss-abilities like Poss-sense, Poss-rip and maybe more (f.i. Basic Poss-abilities need not be the same in every cosm like re-roll, Poss-cancel, Wound-buy-off, Poss-bubble, though reality-contest and reconnection should be available everywhere). Even some world laws could be Poss-abilities like Weird Science (the ability to increase axioms with a device looks a lot like a Poss-ability), also Inclination abilities as reality is awakened by picking a side.
12) Maybe even Ki and Psi are governed by the cosm's Poss rating.
So this could solve the often discussed problem of a Ki/Psi axiom. Instead of using additional axiom(s) the Poss-rating of a cosm could govern this. While all other Special Effects are governed by one Axiom. Psi is governed by three (I can't remember if Ki was governed by more than the Spirit axiom but I can remember that it was linked to Poss). This always seemed to be a problem for me as it is easier to check one axiom for contradiction.
Terra (where Pulp martial arts and Pulp Powers similar to Psi Powers are possible) has not been touched by Mobius, so it could be a Plentiful cosm (the reason why Mobius didn't touch it), Star Sphere had no invaders and Marketplace is used as a constant resource instead of being forcefully depleted of Poss, so it could also be a Plentiful cosm (though on decline).
So the prerequisites for Psi could be: Social 21 and a Plentiful cosm. For Ki it could be: Spirit 8 and a Plentiful cosm. Yes, this would make both available in cosms where they have not been realized yet, but why not?

[slink]

There were two versions of Martial Arts, the default or Nippon Tech version had a Social requirement of 21.
Then, in the High Lord's Guide to the Possibility Wars, there was a Pulp Martial Arts version introduced with a Social axiom requirement of 20.
I always thought how weird the idea of the Social 21 requirement is, considering the mysteries around MA and their origins in feudal times. Granted, some MA were actually only invented in the 19th or 20th century, but the basic idea is a lot older.
Maybe the Possibility Rating could help solve that dilemma.
This needs to be part of a Cosm-building toolkit ;)

[Stormchild]

You are right, it does not make sense to base Martial Arts on a high Social Axiom. Sorry I made some mistakes in the text above - I will edit it. I intended to write that Psi should be based on the Core Earth Social Axiom of 21 and a plentiful cosm, while Ki should be based on the Nippon Tech Spirit Axiom of 8 and a plentiful cosm.

Btw, all martial arts are based on fighting training that was created in ancient times (though I can't find a reference to the exact time). Though it is often said that Kung Fu was the first Martial arts discipline there are also theories that Kalarippayat of Kerala, India and the related form of Vajramushti were first and influenced Kung Fu in the same way Indian buddhism founded and influenced chinese buddhism. Kalarippayat is said to be a source of Ayurveda, a highly Spirit-related knowledge about healing of mind and soul.

So, in the beginning they were all related to the Spirit axiom (that could have been higher in the past). Another possibility could be to base martial arts on a higher Social axiom making it a contradiction even in Nippon Tech (as some kind of leftover from times with higher Spirit).

[Stormchild]

I just remembered that Aysle also had its version of martial arts: the Elven Path of True Knowledge. That could also be used as a version of Martial Arts. Though it is based on faith and focus it looks a lot like Nippon Master disciplines.

[slink]

Btw, all martial arts are based on fighting training that was created in ancient times (though I can't find a reference to the exact time).
At least for the Shaolin style, there is a historical source from the 8th century, referring to a battle in the 7th century (sometime around 610).
So if anybody would want to put a minimum social requirement on MA based on this it would be 12 (according to the CE timeline from Torg R&E). I don't know of the Indian references et.al. though.
In the end, I think, we agree that a Social requirement doesn't make a lot of sense.

[skeloric]

I really don't want to reopen the old "Psi Axiom" debate with this.

I was the one who vilified Jasyn/Apeiros over at WEG forums in an attempt to stop the Psi Axiom (funnily enough it was Rabbitball who was pushing for a Psi Axiom at first and then Jasyn got hold of the idea...) because I hated the idea of there being any change at all.

I had to backpedal from my extreme stance when I finally did a little research on psionics in fiction.

Lets start at the lowest rung we have -- our own world around us.
Scientists cannot seem to PROVE the existence of psi but the anecdotal evidence by police departments of psis offering help and actually giving them the break they need in a case is quite high.
Psi as little more than intuition.

Firestarter, the Stephen King novel shows us just a bit more.
Spontaneous Combustion and minor telekinesis.
Stuff is real enough but the average citizen never sees it and tries to rationalize it away if they do see it.

Necroscope, Lumley's series about a man who can talk to every person who ever died and learn from them all.
Harry can TELEPORT to an alien planet at one point.

Watchmen with Doc Manhattan as the ultimate psi.
He rebuilt his body layer by layer until he came back from the dead.
No need to eat or sleep.
All of time is now to him.
Do nearly anything to anyone at any moment.
"Fat cracklin' power of the gods" is pretty much the point here.

All of these are in need of being represented.
Which involves some sort of scale.
An Axiom seems the easiest.
And it isn't Social as all of the above are Social 21 just like "Core Earth".
Psi also isn't Magic as they all have what would seem to be roughly the same low Magical Axiom as well.
(Though Keogh's Earth actually could be deemed to have much higher magic than the rest.)
Spirit?
I wouldn't want to try to make the case for that either as the above all seem to be about the same Spirit Axiom as well -- Core Earth normal.
Technology? The Watchmen universe is on the cusp of Tech 24 -- at least what 1985 probably thought of as Tech 24 and that was only because Doc Manhattan could spontaneously create rare elements so as to create a revolutionized power generation and storage system -- however the rest of them are quite obviously Tech 23.
Firestarter in fact is Tech 22.

No, current Axioms can't model the realities presented above.

[Stormchild]

I advocated the Psi axiom too back then and bailed out of the discussion when the typical argument for sake of argument short of a flame war started. And I kept to that idea up till you came up with the idea of a cosm rating. Though I don't want to diminish the argumentations you stated, those examples could also be seen as examples of underdeveloped and fully developed techniques, just like cyberware in Tharkold is more mature than in Cyberpapacy as Tharkold had more experience with it.

[slink]

Well, I actually never bought into the "Tharkold just has more experience with cyberware". To me it was another proof of Tharkold's sheer munchkiness.

Either the Cyberpapacy should have improved their cyberware in the run of the wars or Tharkold should have had a higher Tech axiom.

And then, the different cyberpsychosis chart. To Cyberpapists, the cyberware is part of their belief, it is embraced. In Tharkold, cyberware shows your degrade from humanity. From my point of view, the charts should be switched for characters with faith(cyberpapacy).

Going back to the PSI axiom: I also argued for a PSI axiom. Today I still believe those arguments hold, but I don't really care that much anymore.

[skeloric]

After some thoughts I think this idea is even more beautiful than I first realized. It could give answers to some lingering questions like:

1) Where do eternity shards come from?
2) How many eternity shards can be produced by a cosm?
3) How many Hardpoints can be produced by a cosm?
4) How strong are Hardpoints in a cosm?
6) How difficult is it to fill people with poss again - like in giving hope to people in Glory results.
7) How can Axioms advance?
8) How may individuals in a cosm develop the means to use Poss-mechanisms like Maelstrom bridges, stelae, Dimthreads (at least two ways are presented, the normal way High Lords used though without any explanation and the way Hachi-Mara created dimthreads, both include using Poss - I think - but High Lords use collected Poss while Hachi-Mara used Poss given freely and this leads to other questions)?
9) How can people give away their Poss freely?
10) How can raiders rip Poss? I don't mean stelae mechanics, they are presented in the rules, but is it possible to rip Poss in a different way (the Gaunt Man used one on Decker, I think, and the Mobius' Omegatron is another)
11) Additional Poss-abilities like Poss-sense, Poss-rip and maybe more (f.i. Basic Poss-abilities need not be the same in every cosm like re-roll, Poss-cancel, Wound-buy-off, Poss-bubble, though reality-contest and reconnection should be available everywhere). Even some world laws could be Poss-abilities like Weird Science (the ability to increase axioms with a device looks a lot like a Poss-ability), also Inclination abilities as reality is awakened by picking a side.
12) Maybe even Ki and Psi are governed by the cosm's Poss rating.
So this could solve the often discussed problem of a Ki/Psi axiom. Instead of using additional axiom(s) the Poss-rating of a cosm could govern this. While all other Special Effects are governed by one Axiom. Psi is governed by three (I can't remember if Ki was governed by more than the Spirit axiom but I can remember that it was linked to Poss). This always seemed to be a problem for me as it is easier to check one axiom for contradiction.
Terra (where Pulp martial arts and Pulp Powers similar to Psi Powers are possible) has not been touched by Mobius, so it could be a Plentiful cosm (the reason why Mobius didn't touch it), Star Sphere had no invaders and Marketplace is used as a constant resource instead of being forcefully depleted of Poss, so it could also be a Plentiful cosm (though on decline).
So the prerequisites for Psi could be: Social 21 and a Plentiful cosm. For Ki it could be: Spirit 8 and a Plentiful cosm. Yes, this would make both available in cosms where they have not been realized yet, but why not?
I just wanted to say, I wish I had looked at this closer.
You see EXACTLY why I was not entirely willing to take my new idea much deeper.
This is a lot of questions and concepts that REALLY need answering and we... never... got... the answers.

In the beginning of the High Lord's Guide we received a wonderful writeup about "High Lord Points" which could be used to advance the story in a group by group basis.
I always figured that the different Axioms had a different cost to increase or decrease.
Tharkold for instance maybe could push up its Tech Axiom with 20 HL points, but the Magic Axiom required more like 100 HL points to increase and had a habit of falling by a point if at least 50 HL points weren't spent at some regular basis just as maintenance.
Maybe Core Earth has a much easier time with Tech Axiom (followed by Social Axiom) than it does with increasing its Magic and Spirit -- or would if it had a High Lord utilizing HL points.

All of which could be further influenced by the quantity and quality of its Possibility Energy.
Take this all a step further, what if a HL is expending energy to achieve (or maintain) an Axiom that the Cosm can't truly support?
Cyberpapacy may in fact be essentially unstable when quantified in this manner.
Its increase to Tech 26 from Tech 15 is artificial, massive amounts of Poss Energy was used to push it up farther and faster than even the rules declare is possible.
But... I'll add a few suppositionistic wrinkles:
#1 Dr. Hatchi's data-chip had in fact become a minor Eternity Shard due to her diligence in crafting it (let's not get into just how unlikely that is) with an innate power to force an increase in the Tech Axiom by means of a very specialized limited Reality Storm.
Dr Hatchi is the Bearer and Jdil bought into it so as to assist in invoking its special power.
#2 Djilangulyip crossed it over into the Dreamtime and allowed it to somehow generate even more power, through his connection to it. (Probably an extended Power Push via his Spirit/Faith Adds, however that worked).

Which means that it was powerful enough to essentially "Reality Storm" a High Lord like Malraux into a partially new Reality by only altering his Tech Axiom by its "Tech Surge" power.
With enough Poss Energy left over to finally expend itself re-infusing him with PE (if it even caused him to lose any instead of sidestepping them entirely) and sending the excess to Ebenuscrux with which the Tech Axiom could be forced up throughout the realm AND Cosm -- that is a lot of energy to do something that Magna Verita would never have achieved on its own (nor would have attempted).
But yet the Tech Axiom is probably so prohibitively expensive to increase beyond 15 that it probably demands a prohibitive "maintenance cost" just to to keep it from falling back to 25 on its way back to 15.
Which means that Malraux and Ebenuscrux is "wasting" exorbitant amounts of HL Points to retain the increase now that it has had it.
Suddenly, the question of what was achieved is answered -- Cyberpapacy is in fact a power sink.
They must be expending more than they can hope to ever gain from a conquest -- or at the very least, they are using up almost all their HL Points just in maintenance making expansion very difficult but also vital.
Suddenly the invasion of Quebec makes sense, they could not even choose NOT to expand -- they needed the HL Points just to keep from succumbing to a deficit in HL Points and losing the Cyber.
Thus the whole "Cyberpapacy" makes sense on another level in that it no longer can utilize all of its energy to the invasion -- which weakens it considerably.
Additionally, it has probably reduced the Cosm from Dwindling (where all the invaders are at) to PLUMMETING, at least for a short while before rebounding.
In the greater scheme of things, it wasn't enough to affect PE usage in the game -- at least as far as was ever mentioned -- but it does make for added anxiety for Malraux who realizes that he MUST succeed in taking all of the PE because he loses much more than the rest if he takes less, because he is truly running "in the red" and there simply won't be time enough to switch to invading some other Cosm before he runs out.
Almost feel sorry for the guy in that envisioning of his situation.

[Boojie]

Wow,..... just.. Wow. *Brain melts*

[skeloric]

Wow,..... just.. Wow. *Brain melts*
Yeah, that right there is why it is sometimes best to nod and accept the premise.
Because the explanation behind the premise is just about enough to drive you mad.

[Boojie]

Indeed Sir. I was reading all that and then my head suddenly hurt. lol

[Stormchild]

Interesting premise. This could explain a lot. I never accepted the Hachi-Mara gave Malraux the chip and someday this will be his downfall. But a built-in power sourge is a good answer.

[Boojie]

I do remember reading about the chip and Hachi-mara. It has been many years though.