Where did WEG go wrong

[The Game Guy]

We all know now about the problems that WEG is having.

I am curious, what do you think were WEG's biggest mistakes and what could the have done better to prevent what happened?

[masque]

3 corebooks, to me, was the biggest mistake. I own them now, but only because I found them for $10 each on eBay. If they had instead made one big corebook, and then released separate genre books, I think it would have done better. As it is now, there is a ridiculous amount of redundancy in the three separate books, and it makes it hard to swallow to buy the same material over and over again just for the slight system differences in the books. Basically, a GURPS model would have worked better, in my view.

(Just to show my biases, I am a volunteer demo person for Steve Jackson Games, although I don't actually play/demo GURPS.)

As for the current problems, I've only recently become aware of them, but instead of pre-orders (having used that model and failed in a past publishing venture of my own) I would have used the ransom method through Fundable, as Pagan Publishing did with their upcoming Targets of Opportunity Delta Green book.

[Kalzazz]

Im not sure they really made a huge mistake, but I will admit the lack of the Vade Mecum of Magic coming out was a huge dissapointment. I really love the D6 magic system, and was eagerly awaiting the expansion of it

I think also a certain problem was that D6 is simply to simple and easy of a system to sell to many rulebooks . . . in DnD or GURPS, more copies of the Core rules makes things go much much smoother (why I bought 3 copies of the GURPS 3e main book and 2 copies of Comp 1, to share with friends and smooth game), with D6, one book is plenty

[Liteft]

I'm very new to the system and WEG so my veiw maybe somewhat different. WEG and the D6 system has not been very visible since I returned to gaming a few years back, and for me D6 screamed Star Wars, something I have no real intrest in. (I'm more of a classic fanatsy game guy) I had no idea that there were really wonderful generic corbooks out there from WEG untill a few weeks ago. I think that if more companies were putting out stuff for D6 then more folks like me would find it, so an OGL would seem to be the best way to go, even if we have to sort through crap material.

[kellhound]

I don't htink there is a single cause, just a lot of small ones piling up (including the pre-order issue, forum attacks and diffamation like "WEG is dead" and such, etc.).

I agree that only one D6 ruleset would have been better. As the differences are minor between the diferent settings, a single book with common attributes/skills (or allowing a little customization by genre) plus a section for each kind of magic & powers would have been the ideal thing to do.

Of course, not having stablished "brand settings" didn't help, either. Small sourcebooks, with adittional rules if needed, for each setting would have been very helpful for those lazy GMs out there, and hooked up a few followers of said setting. No need for big names, but solidly stablished ones, at least one for fantasy, modern, and future.

[skeloric]

To some extent, I think keeping the name might even have been the biggest mistake.
If he had called it "Gibson Games" or "Fanbase Games" or something ANYTHING other than West End Games which it seems had way too much baggage and caused no little confusion.
"WEG is dead."
"No its not, here it is."
"But it was dead."
"And now it is alive again."
"But it was dead."
*sigh*

[Kalzazz]

I think the name helped more than hurt

WEG? Hey, Ive heard of WEG, shiny!

[rusviking]

Here's my thoughts. WEG didn't have a main product line. Yes they did have D6 Adventure, D6 this and that but what they needed was a World or environment that they could build upon. Think in terms of D&D 4th edition for WOC. It's there main line and they're able to expand and upgrade with success.

If I had the money to play with and I owned WEG I would shop around for a "Dead" system like Star Frontiers and port that over to D6. This way you would have an established game that you could revive and start producing new products. Sure you would get some flack from older games who never forget but that's a small price to pay.

If the cost of printing is an issue then make the entire lot PDF. You would have to lower the price but it would in no way cost as much. Your overhead would be small and you would have bigger returns. Sure you may have the problem of file sharing but they're more honest folks out there then dishonest ones.

[Arbor_Productions]

I'm going to add in my two-cents here from my experience in the business, and in printing books for retail.

1) Three core books. This was one of the, in my opinion, major blunders Eric did. Multiple core books might work for companies like WoTC and White-Wolf, but when considering WEG, by the time he got a hold of the company it was already dragged through the ringer twice. Shane Hensley over at Pinnacle had the right idea when he created the Savage Worlds Explorers Edition and released it as a $10 softcover. It got more people into SW (heck, as a gamer, it got me into it because I bought 3 copies for my group to share at the table for less than a single copy of a normally priced RPG rulebook). Not to mention, from a retailer standpoint, they aren't paying distributors as much to shelve such a book.

2) Marketing. This was another blunder. I walked into my local game shop one day and saw the three D6 rulebooks. Sadly, as much as I watch, I never saw any real marketing to get the word out. If not by dumb luck, I'd have never known they were released. I didn't visit the WEG website very often because, again, due to a lack of marketing I wasn't even really aware they were attempting to conduct any real business.

3) License. When the D6 license first launched and I contacted Eric about it and found out how the $500 deal worked, I walked away as a publisher. For one, the lack of marketing showed me that very little brand name support was being done by the licensor. This fed back into the reality of the core books. That $500 would go back into marketing for my products, but in what form when no true marketing was being done for D6 or WEG in general? For the same price, I could get a decent advertisement in a major industry catalog (thanks to our agreement with Studio-2) plus banners at RPGnet and ENworld. Which, pound for pound, would garner more exposure than ads in a WEG book. Not to mention, this was during the height of the D20 market, and that license was free, with a ton of support (too much actually, but that is another topic), and brand marketing. The license, for any upfront cost, was not worth it to me as a publisher. Despite my nostalgia for D6.

4) Printing/Production. The fact that Eric mentioned before having a backstock of D6 material and having made no profit, it makes me guess that he either spent way too much on producing the product and didn't shop around right for talent (typically, foreign talent is as good as, and far cheaper than, domestic talent . . . which is a sad reality) or went to off-set commercial printing. Off-set commercial printing is good if you get more than, or close to, 2,000 orders for a product. Then you go off-set and get them printed and shipped to Distributors (or in his case, Impressions). For less than that, you use a professional POD service like LSI (which many bigger companies also use), which is owned by Ingram books. Even for a color-cover, b/w interior (color is only addordable at off-set printing, and never if orders are less than 2,000 units between distributors), hardcover, the cost to print leaves room for profitability even after the 55%-57% Distributor cut from the MSRP, and the fullfillment house's (normally) 30% cut from your revenue. All you do is take your orders and print (normally) about 10%-25% more. So, if you get 800 orders to start, you print 880-1000 copies, that way the warehouse has an inventory for re-orders. If Eric did do printing that way, then the only thing I can figure is that stores never paid for product, or he spent more than was realistic on production costs.

5) Lack of Product Line/Support. Look at the successful systems out there, whether it is White-Wolf, Green Ronin, Margret Weis Productions, Pinnacle Entertainment, Exile Game Studios, or WoTC. The systems, even the generic ones like Savage Worlds, contain settings that get players interested and started quickly. WEG possessed nothing to get people into the D6 system, instead relying on past success of D6 itself. Even Green Ronin recognized this with their Mutants & Masterminds OGL off-shoot, and released Freedom City to support it. I wonder, as well, if it was even seriously ackowledged behind the scenes why D6 was so popular in the first place? I.e., the licenses and/or settings attached. A system, without something to support and use it in, does not usually sell well.

At the end of it all, my impression from looking at everything only from the outside, is that Eric had a good dream and desire, but no real experience in, or knowledge about, the publishing business. I also feel like, and this is just me personally, that being a D6 fan himself, he also suffered from the "new publisher" pitfall of: If I print it, they will buy it.

Regards,

[SDF_II]

I think it is hard for us to say since we can only speculate. I think Lee with his experience would have a better idea then most.

But honestly? This is a futile and silly topic. Until you could see the whole picture from WEGs side of the business, you are guessing. And this kind of guessing is a slight against WEG's current ownership.

My opinion.

SDF II

[Stormchild]

Looking from an outside position I can only speculate, but doing marketing as a business myself, I think Arbor Productions has put his fingers right in the wound.

It seems the problems began right from the start. Eric was underfunded and could not afford standard marketing measures. In addition the production costs look way too high. Additionally the problems piled from day one, so Eric was more busy with solving ad hoc problems than putting his brain into creative marketing.

But there were other "mistakes" (it is easy to label a move a mistake when looking back - the hard thing is to do better - so I am not throwing stones but try to analyze what a new owner, should there be one, could do better).

WEG already had 3 generic systems though the market for generic systems is rather cornered by Gurps, D20, Savage Worlds and other smaller systems. Publishing one of them - D6 - divided into three different books made the impression on the buyers as though WEG added 3 new generic systems to the market. In addition it did not come with background worlds. The next impression on the market was, WEG brought another quasi-generic system on the market, again without background material - a new Torg rulebook (though we as fans know that it was never meant to be a new rulebook, instead Eric answered to the cries of us, the fans, to publish Kansas Jim's lost rulebook, this information never reached the market - even retailers that carried the book didn't know that). In the view of new buyers this was a new Torg rulebook without any background material, so why buy it.

Due to all the problems the information policy was very inconsistent. A new Torg - though announced - never came. The same with vademecum of magic and of course Septimus. In addition Eric became more and more aggressive in his discussions with fans (understandably due to the problems, but it created an unprofessional impression).

It would have been better to concentrate on 1 system book that is fully compatible with the existing WEG systems (to insinuate without openly telling the players: you can play Star Wars and Paranoia with these improved rules including the creatures, powers and equipment needed to do so) complete with a background world. I would have used Space Gods from Torg as a stand-alone background and bring the rest of Torg worlds as stand-alone backgrounds in later, followed by a Torg-war-scenario (but that is only my preference, some kind of Star Wars clone would also do, but it is easy to clone Star Wars with Space Gods, all you need to add are some kind of energy melee weapons rules like maybe Psi-energized staffs). Btw I don't think the rules are the biggest asset of WEG but the worlds, though the original WEG could have done better in developing these backgrounds.

Another great option not followed (due to lack of money I believe) is the huge amount of board games WEG has in its portfolio. OK, Eric released a new Junta, but without real development. In order to revamp an old board game, I would visit cons with extensive playtesting of the original game and ask the players there to give input on what should be changed.

Also WEG material leaves lots of opportunity for PC games. I am not talking about high-investment games on the high end of this market but about the lower level where generic programming is cheap and there are many hobby-programmers out there who would do it at low cost. It could be done as Java- or Flashgames or with BlitzBasic or something else.

In addition Torg would be a great background for comics or Anime (no I am not proposing Anime-style but Anime-production as it is cheaper than full-fledged animated movies). When Torg was introduced into the market it was accompanied by 3 novels that detailed on the background story. The modern equivalent to that would be some kind of movie (anime or 3D). Yes, I know, this would cost way more money than Eric had, and I also know that Malibu produced comics that accompanied the Tharkold invasion - but it was distributed and communicated badly. My local comic- and RPG store was not even aware of this comic and not able to provide it, today the internet makes distribution easier of course. Though this would be a costly move, it could open up a window to new customers even those that are not interested in RPG at all. The backgrounds are the main WEG asset not the RPGs. And only with a broader knowledge of these backgrounds it is possible to move into other markets like TCGs, higher-end PC games, real movies... So the key is money to invest into these backgrounds and not only the money to buy WEG.

[The Game Guy]

I think it is hard for us to say since we can only speculate. I think Lee with his experience would have a better idea then most.

But honestly? This is a futile and silly topic. Until you could see the whole picture from WEGs side of the business, you are guessing. And this kind of guessing is a slight against WEG's current ownership.

My opinion.

SDF II

Of course its guessing and speculation. We don't have access to WEG's business plans, reports, etc.

Though I would think Lee is probably correct on exactly what went wrong with WEG

[schnarre]

I concur with Stormchild's post.

[Whill]

Eric Gibson has stated it is simply a matter of printing up too many copies of the books. Sure, many of us have an opinion about how the product lines could have been imporoved, etc. But the bottom line is, spending a lot of money to print books that sit in a warehouse doesn't generate revenue for your company, and delays or eliminates new products from successfully being developed. That's the whole reason they had pre-order for Septimus - so they wouldn't be sitting on a bunch of books that no one was buying. They wanted you to pay for it before it was even printed, and since that didn't work out either I'm sorry to all of those who did so.

[Stormchild]

Every bakerman knows the problem. When he starts on a given day he produces a lot of loafs of bread. If not enough customers show up he will be sitting on a lot of old bread. He can sell them at a reduced price in the evening but even that won't work if no customers show up. That is why even bakermen do advertising. That the products of WEG did not sell is not necessarily due to a lack of merit of the product. There are lots of possible reasons most of them based in the marketing departement.

[Whill]

Good point. If marketing had been better, then maybe they could have sold off a lot of that inventory and wouldn't be in the current predicament.

[The Game Guy]

I think Eric knows where he has made his mistakes and I don't want him to think this forum is hostile towards him.

I know I am the one who started the thread and as such, I think I am going to close this thread.

As I said, he knows what his mistakes are and we shouldn't be rubbing it in his face.

Again, I am at fault and I should have known better then to start this thread.

My apologizes to Eric Gibson/Hellsreach for this thread


Thank You