Looking for Feedback on Firearms

[harmyn]

So, digging through various books we came up with some firearms for use in a late 19th century game. Pricing was tweaked to fit the needs of the game more than the actual cost of the firearms at the time.

Looking for any suggestions to improve what we have here or any suggested tweaks to make them all fit together better.

FIREARMS (http://d6pirates.pbwiki.com/f/Firearms.pdf)

[Grimace]

I downloaded it and will look over it. Don't have the opportunity to now, as it's right before work. But I'll give you some thoughts on it either tonight or tomorrow night.

[Kalzazz]

Hmm, there seems to be a few notable missing weapons (unless Im blind, which is always possible), dont see the Mauser C96 or Kar98, the .30-30 Winchester, or the Madsen gun, why not those?

The item descriptions are quite amusing

Oh, the Walker Colt would also be cool (even if it did tend to blow up)

Out of curiousity, were you using GURPS 3e High Tech as a reference?

[harmyn]

I downloaded it and will look over it. Don't have the opportunity to now, as it's right before work. But I'll give you some thoughts on it either tonight or tomorrow night.

Look forward to seeing your thoughts on it. :)



Hmm, there seems to be a few notable missing weapons (unless Im blind, which is always possible), dont see the Mauser C96 or Kar98, the .30-30 Winchester, or the Madsen gun, why not those?

The item descriptions are quite amusing

Oh, the Walker Colt would also be cool (even if it did tend to blow up)

Out of curiousity, were you using GURPS 3e High Tech as a reference?

It occurred to me about an hour before game time that I had failed to note any firearms, a rather glaring omission for games set in the old west. So myself and one of my players used the GURPS high tech as the base sourcebook and then tried to come up with a list of guns. We set the cut off date as 1885 and dug for a little variety in pistols, rifles, and shotguns.

We even added an extra shotgun because they are fun (the akira '53, and made it a Japanese invention).

I thought we had the Winchester? I missed that one? The others were most likely similar oversites.

[Grimace]

Okay, I was able to give it moderate look over. I won't have the time for a more thorough look through until later...not tonight. Here's my thoughts so far.

Some of your pistol damages seem a bit....off. I can't quite place which ones are wrong, but here's what I'm seeing; Collier .50 cal (older gun ) --what is that, a cap and ball pistol or something?-- is at 3D+2. The Colt Dragoon, a .44 cal is at 3D+2. A S&W Russian .44 cal is 4D. A Derringer 44 is at 3D. A Derringer 41 is at 2D+1. Something isn't lining up correctly there, and I can't quite figure out what at this particular point in time. LIke I said, a more thorough look over will likely tell me more.

Your rifles are decent, but there are some weird damages, like the Winchester '73 in .44 caliber. Is there a reason it's at 4D+1 while the Springfield "Trapdoor" in .45 cal (which is still a black powder weapon) comes in at 6D?

Finally, your scaling for the machine guns seems enormously overpowering. 4D scale difference? Egads! :eek: Yeah, I know you knocked the damages down a bit for those weapons, but the 4D scale difference has more than just a damage difference. Might I suggest toning that down a bit. The Nordenfeldt basically just fired multiple shots of a rifle round at a time. If it uses the Martini Henry cartridge, then give it the Martini Henry damage, but just increase the number of potential hits because of the multi-barrel design of the Nordenfeldt.

About the only weapon I might consider to be at the scale you suggest is the Hotchkiss 37mm, but I'm not sure I'd put it at 6D. Maybe 4D or so...especially at that scale.

It seems you've got a fair collection of weapons, including some of the more esoteric varieties, which is good. When I get more of a chance to do a more thorough look over, I'll give some more thoughts. Overall it seems like you've got a decent start, and some usable stuff. Some might not be exactly "balanced" with other weapons, but it'll do for now. Plus you've got enough to give a good feel of the weapons. Hopefully you've got some pics to go along with the stats so you're players will know what a Dragoon or a Texas Patterson looks like...or even a Nordenfeldt, for that matter. ;)

Hopefully this helps a little.

[Kalzazz]

Hmm, the Colt Dragoon was considered to be a major hand cannon, it fires a 150 or so grain ball at about 1100 fps, so around 400ft/lbs of energy (the Walker Colt is even more potent at about 500, but tends to blow up and is huge, more suited to be carried on horse than a belt), the Colt Navy on the other hand around 120, the unlisted .44 Colt Army about 225

Also, this gun is to cool not to include http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LeMat_Revolver

The .44 Russian is about 300 odd ft/lbs, firing a 250gr or so round at 750 fps so, it should do less damage (the gun firing it is also lighter, and has the advantage of using cased ammo rather than cap and ball

The Winchester 73 fires the .44-40 rifle/pistol round, which flings a 200 odd grain round at 1200 or so fps for about 700 ft/lbs of energy, this same round is used in many other guns of the era (the legendary Colt Peacemaker can be chambered in it) (Im fuzzy though on whether this is for a rifle or pistol, possibly this is a pistol loading and thus fired from a rifle would do perhaps twice more)
The Trapdoor Springfield fires the 405 grain .45-70 round at 1400 fps or so, for about 1800 ft/lbs of energy

The .45 Colt is 500 ft/lbs and used by the great Colt Peacemaker as its default load

The S&W #1 fires the .22 short, which clocks in at a mighty sub 100 ft/lbs

The Derringers would do low damage due to their short barrels

[Kalzazz]

Grimace - most of these guns would either be black powder or have black powder as an option, smokeless powder didnt really take off in the US until after the Spanish American war 15yrs after these guns came out (though the .30-40 Krag was actually a smokeless powder round itself)

[Kalzazz]

Oh, and the ever fun .577 Nitro Express (came out in 1880, the far more famous .600 Nitro Express came out past the cutoff)

Even more insane (but fitting for the period), the 2 bore rifle! http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/09/29/2-bore-rifle-photos/

[harmyn]

Grimace, thanks for the thoughts and review. We do need to tweak them a bit more. Some of the guns are odd because while they had a higher caliber bullet, they had a much lower load. That created some odd combinations. But they do need a bit more work, that much is certain.

Also, agreed on the Gatling Gun, that needs to be downgraded. Maybe to Monster scale? I currently have three scales in use, Character Scale, Monster Scale (for lack of a better word at the moment) and Ship/Train Scale.

The rifles came in that way because the source material we were scribbing from had the Springfield "Trapdoor" coming in at a more powerful shot. Most likely I miskeyed the Winchester. Maybe it should be knocked up to 5d or 5d+1? Seems like that may work better.

One danger I do see is that it seems that many pistols have a descent chance of soaking (we are using wound levels). That can cause some difficulties too.

I do look forward to more imput when you have reviewed it some more. Trust me, I will gladly take any advice on how to make them work a bit better for the game. :)

[harmyn]

Kalazz, thanks for the imput on the way the loads worked and the impact that could have. I wish I could figure out a method for computing the caliber and load to come up with some general damage guidelines. Sadly, my statistics never went that far.

I am definitely adding your two suggestions to my list. Always room for more fun guns in the game. Variety and illusion of variety improve fun.

[Liteft]

Harmyn, Before I went out and bought a balistics program for reloading I used a free online one, it was fair useless for figuring out hand loads but it might just be what you need to to figure out caliber and load to get damage. It will give you a pretty good idea of effective range, muzzle velocity and impact force.

I'll try to hunt it up when I get home from work on Thursday

[Grimace]

Okay, I had a chance to go over things a little more thoroughly tonight. I junked my plans for other things and did this because I needed something I could enjoy to occupy my time. :)

So this is what I've got.

I went through some of my books, referenced some of the weapons that I had already statted up, compared them to both what Kalzazz mentioned and what you had statted up. I didn't tackle all of your weapons, because I hadn't statted all of them (yet) and I didn't have all of them in a book of weapons so I couldn't necessarily reference all of them.

First off, what I mentioned about the machine guns still stands. I didn't even bother relooking at them because I'm fairly certain what you have is too high of scale and the damages are too "off".

For various individual weapons, I've got the following notes:
For the Colt Peacemaker, you're about right on. I hadn't statted it out yet, but my preliminary notes had it listed at 4D+1. That's only 1 pip off of what you had. Based on the notes in the weapon books, that seems about right.

For the Colt Dragoon, even though it's a cap and ball revolver, your damage seems low. I had statted that one and I had it at 4D+1. Based on the information that Kalzazz offered and what I found in the weapon book, I think 4D+1 is about right to maybe being a pip too low. You've got it at 3D+2. That seems a bit low considering how much of a "cannon" it was supposed to be.

The Colt Navy is another one you're about right on. Mine is 3D+1, your's is 3D. Pretty close.

The S&W "Russian", per the book, is the same caliber as the Dragoon, fires at almost the same muzzle velocity, and isn't a cap & ball revolver. You've got it at 4D, which is 1 pip higher than your Dragoon stat. I think your Dragoon stat is low, so this may be a bit low as well. My suggestion, since I haven't done this one yet, is maybe give it a boost of a pip.

For rifles, the "Le'bell" or Modele 1886 "lebel" 8mm rifle I'd put at around 6D. You've got it at 7D. Yes, it has a fast muzzle velocity, but it is a relatively light round for a rifle of that time period. It had the advantage of being the first rifle, worldwide, to use ammunition of the smokeless powder variety. But I wouldn't put it quite as high as you have it.

The Martini Henry I've got listed at 5D+1. The weapon book lists it at fair to low muzzle velocity, but it's got a hefty .45 caliber bullet (11.4mm). You list it at 6D. The choice of adjusting it really depends on how much emphasis you put muzzle velocity.

The Winchester M1873 was one of the most used rifles of the American West. It's got a hefty .45-60 on up size of round. I put it around 7D in damage (though I haven't officially statted the weapon yet). You've got it at 4D+2. That's really too low, I think.

Finally, the "trapdoor" Springfield. It fires a .45 caliber round but was a rather strange percussion cap weapon. While it could hit, it wasn't a superb weapon by any means and is generally regarded as one of the worst weapons that was ever adopted by the US Military. Most that know the weapon say it was in service for way too long and was generally an inferior weapon. I've seen some sites list it as using the .45-70 round, which is wholly incorrect. It did not use encased bullets like the .45-70 round. For this reason, and what I've heard about the weapon, I've statted it at 4D+2 damage. You've got it at 6D. You may be a bit high, but it really depends on which versions you choose to recognize. If you go by stuff you find on a cursory glance on the internet, I can understand you going with a higher damage code. If you want to go with more historical accounts, I'd suggest dropping it a bit.

I didn't go over all of your weapons, but hopefully with the above examples, you can decide where everything falls in regards to the others and you can refine your stats a little to better reflect some of the weapons. All in all, your list is pretty close. The only glaring things are the Winchester '73 and the machine guns. Everything else isn't too bad.

And, like Kalzazz mentioned, if you include the Le Mat and maybe a couple other old west weapons (like maybe a Volcanic pistol as well) it could really at a neat flavor to the weapons of the time period.

Hopefully this helps.

[Stormchild]

You seem to be very knowledgeable in firearms. Do you know if there are real world measures for different firearms power? These could be used on the Torg value chart which has also been introduced into D6 (for magic though, but it can be used for everything).

[Grimace]

There's nothing easy to find...that I've found, that is. Doing a lot of hunting, and not trusting anything you read on Wikipedia, you can generally come up with a lot of weapons, but mostly there's no "all encompassing" list of firearms and their power...that I've been able to find.

Now Lifeft said he knew of something free online that listed something about weapons. I don't know if he can still find it, and how inclusive of a weapons list it is, but that might be a start. The best way, if you really want this information, is to start collecting books, do research and compile a list yourself.

[Kalzazz]

If I recall, the Trapdoor Springfield in its military surplus form (as well as the .50 version that preceded it) was quite popular as a poor mans buffalo rifle, and that a fair bit of its problem was due to bargain basement military copper cased ammo, where the copper cases tended to actually melt and get stuck in the gun

[kellhound]

I heard the same explanation Kalzazz says. And knowing military procurement, I tend to believe it :p

Reloading tables and books tend to have a good range of calibres (and weapons, of course), with bullet weights and muzzle energy listed. Sometimes even barrel lengths for certain guns.
Can try googling "reloading tables", and checking results:
http://www.gun-shots.net/reloading-data.shtml
http://ammoguide.com/
I know there was one page for "cowboy action shooting" with period cartridges, but could not find it.

JANE's Infantry Weapons, of course, is THE book to have (despite erratas here and there) if you only want one, but current editions are very expensive (I got a 1999 one cheap on ebay). Their web is subscription only and expensive for only that use.

But I have my list temporarily on hold. D6 damage progression doesn't adapt that well to some real world results, so for now I'm basing damages for my scifi campaign in what is needed to bring down an average (2D, 3D Strength) character hitting different parts of the body. But I still need a random hit table using D6s. :D

[Kalzazz]

The table we use goes
Roll 1d6
1 head
2-3 torso
4 (roll again, 1-3 L arm, 4-6 right arm)
5 left leg
6 right leg

Im not very happy with it and would like a better one, but is I believe the stock Star Wars hit location table

[Liteft]

Grimace and Harmyn
What I had was a reloading tool, you entered the cartrige, powder type, powder grain, and bullet shape and weight and it would give you an so-so read on what the load would do. I'll try to hunt it up tommorrow, but the more that I think of it I'm not sure it will give you what you need. It mainly focuses on more modern weapons so anthing cap and ball or smooth bore would be out. It would give you some added insight into rounds like the .45-70, .44 Colt or the 303.

Ah well this kind of info is fun for me to pour through so I'll have a good time looking it up regardless.

[kellhound]

One D6 doesn't fit quite right in hit probability on the human body.

I thought, but not tested yet, and to avoid an additional roll, to read the wild die as follows:
1-2 legs (left or right depending on situation, -1 to damage)
3-4 arms (idem, but -2 damage)
5 body, normal damage

Then, if a 6, on next roll:
1-4 body
5 body, vital organ (the +12 damage modifier)
6 head (again, +12 damage)

If any part has armor, it provides DOUBLE its normal value. I do this with aimed shots to protected parts, too.

But this has it's own problems, due to how the wild die works. I don't know the effects of a dodge to the mix. Barely made rolls hitting the head for max damage? Very good rolls missing completely? It needs serious testing.
And altough i keep limb probabilities inside the usual range, head probability is the way lower than it should (around 9%).

Of course, I could use other dice, but then it would not be D6 :D

[Rerun941]

Why not just roll 2D6 and use the bell curve to your advantage?

2 - Lowest Probability (Head, vital organ)
3
4 - Arms
5
6
7 -Highest Probability (Body/Torso)
8
9
10 - Legs
11
12 - Lowest Probability (Head, vital organ)

[kellhound]

Well, actually I thought about using Battletech hit table ;)

The idea of using the Wild Die was to make less rolls.

[harmyn]

......I didn't go over all of your weapons, but hopefully with the above examples, you can decide where everything falls in regards to the others and you can refine your stats a little to better reflect some of the weapons. All in all, your list is pretty close. The only glaring things are the Winchester '73 and the machine guns. Everything else isn't too bad.

And, like Kalzazz mentioned, if you include the Le Mat and maybe a couple other old west weapons (like maybe a Volcanic pistol as well) it could really at a neat flavor to the weapons of the time period.

Hopefully this helps.

Grimace, thanks for all your feedback and suggestions mate. I am going to go in and update them tomorrow night so they will be ready for Saturday. :)

I am also going to add in the other guns too for added fun.

I am still trying to peg down the machine guns. They won't be coming up into play soon so I still have time to figure them out, but those are vexing me.

[Grimace]

What scales are you using? That might help me out in providing suggestions for machine guns.

[harmyn]

What scales are you using? That might help me out in providing suggestions for machine guns.

For ease, I was going with the die bonus penalty idea.

Character Scale: +0D
Monster Scale (would be vehicle scale if they had something more impressive than wagons and carriages): +2D
Ship/Train Scale: +4D

(and optional Cthuloid Scale: +Your Just Dead/CrazyD)

There is not a lot of variance in size of things so I am thinking this should work.

[Kalzazz]

I often use a Fox scale also, -2d. For fox sized things

[Grimace]

Well, if you're just using those three options, then I'd suggest you put the machine guns in the "Monster" scale. As I mentioned, though, the Nordenfeldt is just a Martini-Henry round fired from multiple barrels. So use the same scale as the Martini-Henry but account for the added barrels however you decide to do that.

For the Gatling, I'd suggest a lower damage at "Monster" scale (+2D). For the Hotchkiss, I'd suggest a medium damage at "Monster" scale (+2D). Neither one is large enough, in my opinion, to qualify as a "ship" scale weapon. You'd have to start getting into the heavy duty weapons for that.

And might I suggest, if you're open to the idea, the option of a mid-scale between Monster and Character. Call it Large or whatever. Use it as a +1D scale. If you're okay with doing something like this, your machine guns become a lot easier to deal with and can be put into that scale rather easily. If you don't want to be that creative, then definitely go with the "Monster" scale rather than the ship scale for the machine guns.

[harmyn]

In part for the reason for Ship Scale was because the Hochkiss was used to shoot incoming torpedos at ships. Also, the other gamebook references we used listed the damage for it at 10d+ when the really good pistols were only getting 3d+1 and the rifles around 4d to 5d for the most part. Given such a large increase we were trying to come up with a reasonable way to model it.

Still needing to work on that a bit more.

[Grimace]

What do you mean "the Hotchkiss was used to shoot incoming torpedos at ships"? Do you mean, torpedos that were fired at ships were in turn targetted and fired at by the Hotchkiss? Or do you mean in to infer that the 37mm Hotchkiss actually fired little mini-torpedos at ships?

If it's the former, you can still knock the scale down. The resistance of a torpedo is probably only 1D or so. Given the damage of a Hotchkiss, it could easily be enough to hit and destroy an incoming torpedo. Just because a torpedo might dish out enough damage to affect a ship doesn't mean it has to be as durable as a ship... it just has to do enough damage to a ship. The durability can be put low enough that the Hotchkiss can be at a lesser scale and not cause other "balance" problems.

And when I refer to balance problems, I'm referring to cannons. If you put a 37mm Hotchkiss at Ship scale, what are you going to put a Civil War era 3B Parrot Rifle at? Or, a brief step up, a BOFORS 40mm auto cannon? Or a 75mm tank gun? It's easier to start low and creep up if need be than to start high and realize later that you've thrown yourself into an ever escelating increase in weapon scales and damages.

[Kalzazz]

The Hotchkiss was also intended to smack torpedo boats and such . . . which, are probably around speeder scale

[kellhound]

But torpedos and torpedo boats aren't armored.

As Grimace suggests, you should lower it (your monster scale, sounds right).

[harmyn]

Thanks again to all for your feedback. i have adjusted the machine guns down to monster scale and tweaked the others following your suggestions. It is very much appreciated.

And if we can come up with something in the "Scaling" thread, we will really have some amazing basis to work from.