Star Wars Cosm.

[skeloric]

As in my TORG fiction I offered elsewhere, I have always pondered turning D6 Star Wars into a TORG Cosm ever since first reading the game and noting the similarities.
So I might as well start pondering it.
Maybe I'll get some D6 fans in here who might be equally interested in porting it over.

The Axioms start the list and i will be start by saying that I do not foresee the Social Axiom being much higher than Core earth or NipponTech/Marketplace.
Tech would be a very different version of 30 than seen in Star Sphere, it might even be tech 31 as that could be necessary to create the Death Star and other "super weapons".

So as a beginning to the foray:
Social: 22 to 23. Certainly much lower than the 27 of Star Sphere.

Tech 30 or 31.
Regular space opera sci-fi as represented throughout most of Star Wars is already typically 30 as I understand the book, however the Death Star as noted seems like an advancement upon Tech 30 precepts.
Maybe this place has been Tech 31 for a long time and they finally upgrade to the Death star. They've made "planet killers" before according to fiction and I just see such incredible power being beyond most Tech 30.
I also think Lightsabers represent a bump in technology over Tech 30, thus making them Tech 31 as well.

Magic is tricky.
The Force is seen as Mysticism in films 4 through 6 and could be seen as magic but then again, no magical creatures.
Not magic.
I'd put magic low partly out of a belief that there is no magic but also that there seems to be no TIME for magic.
Magic 5 or less.

Spirit.
This is tricky AGAIN.
The Force is a philosophy and is clothed in religion.
To be honest, clothing Force as "weird miracles" makes it different from Psi as seen is Star Sphere and invokes a greater sense of individuality.
I just like it better as well.
We'll start at 14 and think of not going further upwards.
Indeed, The Force is in decline due to the actions of the Emperor and "Lord Vader".

World Laws.
The Law of the Force.
This puts the precepts of The Force into position to be enforced upon visitors to The Empire.
This allows for additional functions to be applied to Possibilities as they are also "Light Side" Points.
Adhering to the precepts of The Force gains Possibilities.
All Storm Knights must be VERY careful however as this means that they now potentially qualify as Jedi.
All Jedi Knights must also be Possibility Rated as well, thus they can access the Light Side of The Force.

The Power of the Dark Side
The Emperor has yet to tinker with this Law as it is already harsh.
Strong, negative emotions grant "Corrupted Possibilities" (AKA "Dark Side Points") which pervert and corrupt the Jedi -- as well as any Storm Knight visiting.
Yeah, this does sound like trying to reinvent the Corruption of either Aysle or Orrorsh.
The difference is that it offers a Possibility that can be used in a very specific way and also creates a semi-permanent "stain" on the soul as a record on the sheet.

Finally, an as yet unspecified Law about the "Ascendancy of the Mechanism" which makes bio-tech a contradiction.
(Honestly, I think such a strong push towards the biological in Star Sphere is worthy of some sort of World Law itself, but the next best thing is to restrict it here by World law.)
Overall, this Law is for flavor.
Luke's hand is cybernetics rather than a vat grown replacement hand.


This is Axioms and World Laws complete.

The Force.
A Spirit skill naturally.
Indeed, it operates similarly to Reality -- which has me pondering having Reality take on a double duty.
Maybe, maybe not.
If it is Reality pursuing two functions all SKs automatically become Jedis upon entering.
This could be fun as everyone LOVES to be the Jedi anyway, right?
It also offers a continual thorn in the side of the Emperor as the very Cosm keeps empowering new arrivals to potentially oppose him, thus forcing the Emperor and Vader to continually respond to "Vibrations in the Force" represented by all the SKs.
On the Flip side, being a Jedi is hard work.
It require dedication and a stringent regimen and a strong adherence to asceticism.
Making any and all SKs into Jedi puts them in greater danger as they lack this and could be more easily swayed to the Dark Side with the net result of strengthening the Emperor.

Weighing the two out is not easy.
I'll have to think on this some more.
It maybe Monday before I can come back to this.
My folks packed away their computer as their computer room is getting tiles put in. (It has been bare cement ever since the flooding which necessitated the carpet removal.)
Because of this, I am unlikely to be able to access the computer over the weekend.

[skeloric]

The Attributes and skills do not quite match up, however their values do once we decide what translates to what.

I'm consulting the "Star Wars 2nd Edition R&E" copy that I was gifted with, for this project.
Thus page numbers will be based upon this book and may require searching for in another edition.

Referencing the "Player Handout" on p18 shows us the star Wars attribute set:
Dexterity -- just like TORG Dexterity
Knowledge -- ??? (maybe Mind)
Mechanical --- ???
Perception -- just like TORG Percetion
Strength -- just like TORG Strength
Technical --- ???

We have three known quantities and three unknowns, though one could translate well enough but we'll cover it below.

Lets convert our KNOWN quantities.


Die ... Attribute Attribute
Code Rating (orig) ...Rating (Adj.)
2d("human min") 6 ... 8
2d+1 ... 7 ... 8
2d+2 ... 8 ... 9
3d ... 9 ... 10
3d+1 ... 10 ... 11
3d+2 ... 11 ... 12
4d(human max) 12 ... 13
4d+1 ... 13 ... --
4d+2 ... 14
5d ... 15 ... 14
5d+1 ... 16 ... --
5d+2 ... 17 ... --
6d (Wookies!) ...18 ... 15



Um, this is extremely rough and may yet be fiddled with.
As it is, Wookies can lift skyscrapers with the original (orig) conversion and as you see they get neutered quite a bit with the adjusted (adj) version -- which is necessary due to the "logarithmic" nature of the attributes.
Also, 2d is adjusted to the minimum of 8.


But now we must consider the remaining Attributes of TORG as well as our "maybe".

First up is Toughness.
To be honest, unless there was some skill dice applied to "Stamina" or otherwise is in some physically demanding "occupation", might as well keep the Toughness down at either 8 or 9 to start with.

Next is Charisma.
Guh, there's nothing even close in attributes.
Again we go to applied Skill Dice, though this time in "Con", "Bargain", or "Persuasion" under Perception.
This is the basis for Charisma.
Got "Con"/"Bargain"/"Persuasion"?
More Charismatic
Otherwise, not so much.

Spirit...
Spirit is special.
I'm going to assume a base of 8 just to start.
Just the act of being "Force Sensitive" will grant a +1 for 9.
Then having a +3d in EACH of the three Force skills AFTER THE FIRST WHICH IS APPLIED TO THE FORCE SKILL UNDER SPIRIT is good for an additional +1 to Spirit, up to the limit of 13.
Thereafter, additional dice translate directly die for +1 into the Force Skill under Spirit.

Jedi Abwo Tem has: Control+5, Alter+6, Sense+5
Being a Jedi he goes from 8 to 9 just for "Force Sensitive"
He then gets each of the skills at +1 reducing his totals to C+4, A+5, S+4.
The +3 is wiped out pushing his Spirit up to 10, followed by the final C+1, A+2, S+1 added back into the placeholder values (the seat aside +1) to skill for C+2, A+3, S+2.
Jedi are very intimidating, which also defaults to Spirit.
Overall, this attribute like Toughness and Charisma will need to be "eyeballed" a bit.
Unless the character has been at it for a long time, one should be able to add up the attributes and adjust to conform to the 66 attribute points of a Starting TORG character.
If they have been at it a long time, decreasing some skills and padding out attributes up to the maximum of 13 might be OK.
However... "Willpower" Skill Dice (from the Star Wars Knowledge Attribute) could be converted -- at +3d to to +1 to Spirit attribute also, if there are no Force Skills, which then represents a latent talent for the Force IN ADDITION TO being converted to Willpower or Test Skills under Mind.

Knowledge equals Mind?
Maybe.
But I think it might be good to sort of "Average out" a composite of Knowledge/Mechanical/Technical
The added together value divided by three becomes the "base" with each one of the three originally exceeding 10 becoming a +1.
Knowledge 2d for 8
Mechanical at 3d+1 for 11 (a +1)
Technical at 2d+2 for 9
8+11+9=28/3 for 9.3 (repeating) or 9.
With the previous +1 it goes to 10.
Mind is then set at 10.
Complex maybe but I think it might help recoup some of the assigned points in all three of Star Wars' "Mind" Attributes.

Finally, add up the attributes.
If they are under 66 still pad them out with additional points.
Otherwise, its represents a character's growth.
Realize that this is a VERY ROUGH DRAFT.
I'll be converting an NPC to see how it goes.
Thus I will switch now to the Star Wars sourcebook, 1987 copyright (an older book).

Darth Vader
Dex 3d (10)
Lightsaber 11d+2... we'll drop the +2 as being extraneous to get 11d.
11d traded 1d for +1 reaches +11 in skill by direct conversion which is just insane.
But one does not challenge Vader to a lightsaber duel, I'm considering leaving it as is.
HOWEVER, this represents a long time pushing up the skill and I might shift some to the attribute on a point for point basis, taking off 3 from the skill and pushing the Attribute to 13.
Dex 13
Lightsaber skill at +9
Most of the rest of the skills under Dex appear as to require fancy translation and I'm already certain most could be deemed to be used unskilled, especially after pushing up Dex by 3.
The rest could be a drib or drab +1s and +2s as the GM deems fitting.

Strength 3d (10)
Looks as though he is a good climber/jumper as well as lifter which translates directly into the equivalent TORG skills, and again I'd peel off skill points -- only +2 this time -- to push Strength to 12.
However, his brawling needs to be shunted (and perhaps blunted) to Dex as Unarmed Combat where it is in TORG.

Toughness --
Already this is looking harsh as he easily could go to about 16 Toughness if he wanted -- Automatic 8 base plus 8 in Stamina unless I think quick here.
I'll take a third of that 8 (+2) and make him a 10 in Toughness.
I'll have to adjust the rules for that in the next draft.
I could perhaps bump him to 11, but no, maybe not.

Perception 3d+1 (11)
But he has a huge Search (8d), but this could just be a Find of +8 or we could push his Perception to 13 and reduce Find to +6.

Mind --
OK, time to see if I am talking stupid or onto something here -- or both.
OK, we start with the Star Wars die codes and apply our system...
Knowledge 3d+2 (12, "+2")
Mechanical 2d (8)
Technical 3d (10)
((12+8+10)/3)+2 or 12.
A Mind of 12 is quite good.

Charisma --
Noting how I had to correct my assumption in Toughness, I set my vase at 8 and hope I won't have to "recalibrate" again.
Con and Barter each at 4d if I hold back a +1d for a remaining value 3d and then divide each by 3, I'll get a combined +2 overall or a Charisma of 10 and two skills at +1 each under Charisma to select later as I see fit for the character.
Looks good.

Spirit.
Wowza.
Vader is scary here:
Control+11
Sense+12
Alter+10 (rounded down)

Start at 8 and bump to 9 (Force Sensitive, I'm going to guess...;) )
CSA+1 subtracted to be added back in.
Results in C+10, S+11, A+9
Reduce them all by 9 to bump the Attribute by three to 12, reducing the skills to C+2, S+3, A+1.
He'll be rolling with a combined value of 15 to Sense, that's quite high but the sense here is that reducing the three by 3 to push up the Attribute by 1 might be too hindering.
Maybe my original plan to take off 4 points from each and transfer directly as a total 4 point increase to Spirit for a Spirit of 13 then converting to (remembering to add back in the first +1 set aside which would happen in either version) C+7, S+8, A+6 for a total Sense value of 13+8 or 21.
Sense value at 15 or 21?
Just how powerful should Darth Vader be?
And exactly which should I prepare for when converting over the Force Powers.

But this is a rough draft.
A VERY rough draft.
This thing really NEEDS some harsh criticism or something.

[skeloric]

Second Thought...
Spirit Axiom reduces to 12.
After all Han Solo didn't believe in "hokey religions" as he stated in Star Wars (A New Hope)
It had been 14 back in Episode 1, but collapsed.

Next up:
The Law of the Force also needs to note that all religions are just emanations of the Force and either default to the Force (if originating within the Cosm) or they are a 4-case contradiction (if they originate from beyond).
Of course, this sounds eerily like Star Sphere Law of Acceptance in the first half which suddenly has me making sneaky assumptions about the source of some of the themes and features built into the Space Gods book, but I pointedly limit external presentations of the Divine in an attempt to preserve my Cosm's setting.
This is not "Space Hippies"/"Flower Children from Outer Space", this is the Star Wars Cosm under the thumb of the Empire.

"To all you Vader Haters, we'll blow your planet up!"
"We got Death Star!"

[Whill]

"To all you Vader Haters, we'll blow your planet up!"
"We got Death Star!"

LOL, the Star Wars Gansta Rap. I love it.

Anyway, wow, skel! I'm sorry that I can't comment on your conversion because I only played Torg a few times in 1990 and have never owed a book. But very impressive on the massive undertaking involved in creating a Star Wars cosm.

I think I understand your mentioning of the Death Star was in the interest of some kind of tech-level consideration, but wouldn't a Death Star itself actually be out of place in Torg? Am I mis-remembering the Torg premise or aren't all the cosms located on Earth, meaning that all the adventuring takes place on one planet with many realities? So wouldn't a Death Star just blow up the entire game setting? For that matter, if the game takes place on one reality-warped Earth, wouldn't hyperdrive or even interplanetary travel not even need to exist for this cosm? Or is it that all the planet's in the Torg game's universe (multiverse) have the reality/cosms thing going on?

And if I remember correctly, isn't there something like a supreme Lord of each cosm? Is the Lord of the Cosm the Emperor?

Please forgive my ignorance of Torg, but I couldn't help be interested in this thread because I am such a Star Wars nerd.

[skeloric]

The Star Wars Cosm backstory.
"Arise Lord Vader and tell me, have you retrieved that for which we sent you?"
"As according to the most ancient Sith texts which recently came into your hands, my master, it was as they told. An ancient lightsaber of deepest black, appearing to have no functioning parts. It is here in the case you provided."
"Excellent, my servant. You may depart again on a mission of importance to the empire. An Alderanean senator seems to have taken upon herself to engage in criminal theft of the plans to our Death Star. You will apprehend her before she reaches her contact on Tattoine. Now go."
"As you command, my master."

***

"How goes my plan, Lord Vader?"
"They have escaped the Death Star, my lord. Soon they will lead us to their stronghol-- Master, it appears they seek the moon of Yavin."
"Very good. We will utilize the abilities of this new tool to open a... dimthread into their outpost on Yavin's moon.
You will take yourself and 100 of our best troops through to take the facility and be ready for the Falcon's arrival."
The audacity of this untried tactic stunned the dark lord, who remained silent until he departed to make the preparations at the wave of the Emperor's hand.

***

It was over now.
Many had fled the base only to be picked off by the fleet riding at the outskirt's of the Death Star's wake.
The Falcon flew right into the guns of the very moon it sought as refuge, guns manned by the third wave of stormtroopers, shunted there by dimthread.
Rumors of an escape pod already circled through the corridors, but to where would it go if one existed?
The rebellion was crushed although it had nearly exhausted the "Device", however it was in full agreement that such disorder was greatly undesirable.
Order must be maintained at all costs.

***

Fifteen years after the fall of Yavin, the rumors persist.
Rumors of a lone agent hidden away somewhere, learning what is needed to oppose the empire.
While Darth Vader investigates each rumor personally, finding nothing, the rumors persist.
The Emperor has waged an invasion twice, crossing over by massive bridgeheads in space that allow the Death Star to enter in each time to perform as the battle station it was designed to be.
The last act of conquest in each was to employ the full power of the Death Star's main cannon to destroy the nearly dead world within each Cosm which they had invaded.
Bounding large swaths of space just beyond the world's orbit was wasteful but it also allowed for Tie fighter strafing runs upon the backward conquered populace and otherwise allow Tarkin to employ his military doctrines.
In each Cosm however, Jedi were spontaneously generated among the transformed populace making conquest much more uncertain than it should have been.
Soon however, their new target would be prepped with stelae.
Then Earth would feel the full might of the Empire.

[Kansas Jim]

I think I understand your mentioning of the Death Star was in the interest of some kind of tech-level consideration, but wouldn't a Death Star itself actually be out of place in Torg? Am I mis-remembering the Torg premise or aren't all the cosms located on Earth, meaning that all the adventuring takes place on one planet with many realities?
The Death Star would be out of place in the Possibility Wars, the campaign that the published Torg material describes. But the source material is not limited to just the Earth and the realms which have invaded it. The Space Gods who are part of the P-Wars come from a universe of their own where something like the Death Star could easily exist. They just couldn't (easily) bring it through to the Earth because of how the realities differ.

And if I remember correctly, isn't there something like a supreme Lord of each cosm? Is the Lord of the Cosm the Emperor?
Each of the invading realities is led by a High Lord, but there are realities in the game which do not have High Lords (Earth itself, for example). The Emperor would be a likely candidate for the position, he has all of the right qualities, but the High Lord doesn't always have to be the supreme ruler of his home turf (but it certainly helps!) There are rulers who work behind the curtains (3327 of Marketplace, people think he is only part of the ruling cabal of his world) and even ones who abandoned their home worlds in favor of conquering others (neither the Gaunt Man nor Mobius conquered or ruled their home worlds.)

[Kansas Jim]

Way back in the early days of the game (long before the Prequels), a Star Wars cosm was one of the first adaptations I played around with in Torg. I modeled the Jedi primarily off of Chinese monks, warrior-priests with miracles and martial arts which was then filtered through a World Law explaining the Light and Dark sides.

Over time I modified the concept; after Space Gods came out they became monks with psionics and martial arts. As the Expanded Universe grew and added non-Jedi Force users to the mix I decided that the Force was not a religion (ie Spiritual in nature) per se; I went back to the original description of it being an energy field generated by all living things and realized that Torg already has something like that, Possibility Energy. So the WL for the Force then set things up such that there were many ways for people to utilize P-Energy. Dathomir witches accessed the Force using the Magic axiom, for example, while the Jedi (and Sith) represented the pinnacle of Force users by tapping into it multiple ways - martial arts, psionics and miracles for the Jedi and martial arts, psionics and magic for the Sith. (I had set up the miracles/magic dichotomy as emblematic of the Light/Dark Side dichotomy of the Force.)

Besides the Force there was another important WL I had which helped define the setting. I never gave it a real name, my working name for it was the Law of Big. Everything is big in Star Wars; it's not just an empire but a galactic empire, they build space stations the size of moons, they don't have deserts or jungles they have desert and jungle planets, etc etc. This had one major effect in that the Social axiom of the cosm is decoupled from the size of the empire, it doesn't need an over-inflated Social axiom simply to deal with it being made up of hundreds to thousands of alien worlds. It's an empire, empires are not high Social concepts!

I can't find any of my old writeups on my computer so I'm just guesstimating the axioms I came up with way back when. Magic I put somewhere around 8. There aren't any creatures in Star Wars which I'd call magical in nature nor did we see magical effects like transmutation or conjurations being worked with the Force so there's not much call for it to be any higher than that. Social I went with 20-21, basically 20th century Earth but with a WL-boost to be Big! Spirit I think I went with an 11 or so, we saw places imbued with spiritual power (the dark tree on Dagobah) so I figured it needed to be around that level. It could also be a point or two lower than that for the cosm, with Dagobah being an area with a permanent localized axiom shift up to 11. Tech I went with 30 because of fast FTL (ie, hyperspace) but Star Wars tech really ranges anywhere between 25 to 30.

[skeloric]

I'm still conflicted.
With KJ weighing in on having made SKs automatically Jedi, I find my own stance somewhat more difficult to take on the subject.
Maybe before the night is out I'll make a choice.
...
...
...
...
...
I hope.

[Stormchild]

There we are back to the Storm Lords idea (was it from Jasyn Jones?). I love this idea and it could work out in the Torg/Star Wars. Every Storm Knight is a Jedi but does not know how to use the force.

So he begins with those limited powers we know from Torg Storm Knights, which are the ability to gain an instant boost by using Poss, increased reaction (using a Poss to buy off damage which could be explained as dodging in the last split second), strong willpower (not being swayed into another reality).

I can't remember what Powers the Jedi had as it is a long time since I read it, but I think the Powers could be explained as being honed Poss-Powers.

[skeloric]

There we are back to the Storm Lords idea (was it from Jasyn Jones?). I love this idea and it could work out in the Torg/Star Wars. Every Storm Knight is a Jedi but does not know how to use the force.

So he begins with those limited powers we know from Torg Storm Knights, which are the ability to gain an instant boost by using Poss, increased reaction (using a Poss to buy off damage which could be explained as dodging in the last split second), strong willpower (not being swayed into another reality).

I can't remember what Powers the Jedi had as it is a long time since I read it, but I think the Powers could be explained as being honed Poss-Powers.

I can see that.
So my thought now is:
All Jedi are SKs but not all SKs are Jedi.
This allows Jedi to use their powers and for them to be refinements of the SK powers inherent in Possibility usage but does not make every SK a Jedi and thus make it all a bit too weird.
This means that Possibilities work in the same way that Force Points work in that they grant a boost to the character with a similar in-game reasoning, while not making every character a potential Jedi.
I think that "Force Sensitive" needs to be a special ability that has a special purchase cost at character creation and a special upkeep cost as well.
This would allow everyone to have some instinctual control over the "Force" (Possibilities) while only some are capable of being "aware enough" to have a conscious control required to be a Jedi.
The Force Skills (Control, Sense, Alter) are 3 to 1 then to purchase as well for the first add just like Nippon Martial Arts -- perhaps with "Sense" being the one needed first right after gaining "Force Sensitive".