Fellow GM's ever have a Player give you an Ultimatum?

[TinMan]

Cause I did this past weekend... Basically one of my experienced players did not like a new house rule I am fleshing out (Guys a power gamer and this new rule fly's right in his face).

In this case after we went around in circles for an extended period of time debating the new house rule he said to me that he didn't think the new rule was fair and that if I didn't change it he would not play anymore!
My response was "well it has been nice playing with you". So effectively he tossed himself out of the group.

In any case if it wasn't going to be this issue it would have been something else that would have ended it. Since sometime last year he has been increasingly more dissatisfied with my style of Games Mastering and I have been increasingly more annoyed with his attitude regarding my games in session and out.

As it stands now even after a little bit of discussion with him after the fact, he is still out of the group.

So anyone else ever have a player pull the ultimatum card on you? If so how did you deal with it?

[TinMan]

Just one note to the above, I'm not all that mad about this. The player in question and I are still friends just not fellow role players anymore. So again you guys ever run into something like this?

[Ur Athal]

I have never run into the ultimatum situation, probably because they realized they would have pie in the face at the end of it. If I am going to spend a lot of my free time working on a game the least you can do is accept that some rules may need to be modified so everyone else GM included can have fun, if you don't like it go play an MMO where everyone can twink out equally. What was the rule variation out of curiosity?

[TinMan]

I have never run into the ultimatum situation, probably because they realized they would have pie in the face at the end of it. If I am going to spend a lot of my free time working on a game the least you can do is accept that some rules may need to be modified so everyone else GM included can have fun, if you don't like it go play an MMO where everyone can twink out equally. What was the rule variation out of curiosity?

Yeah that is how my other players look at it too; it was just this one guy who couldn't accept it.
As for the house rule in question
It is still a work in progress but essentially when you hit 10D in a skill you must pay a per adventure session up keep cost to maintain that level of skill (30% rounded up). That is unless it is your characters profession in which case you pay nothing so long as you are using that skill on a reg to semi reg basis.

I'm thinking of it in the same way that athletes like boxers, professional sports players, Olympians even doctors must keep training almost daily or in the case of a doctor keep up on all the latest medical journals etc. All so they can keep their skills as high as possible or improve.

You want a specialization or the normal skill to be 10D and above but your character either doesn't want to or doesn't have the time to train in it (4 to 8 hours a day 5 to 7 days a week), then you have to put character points into it to keep it there otherwise it will drop -1 pip per session until it bottoms out back at 9D+2.

Like I said it is a work in progress.


This rule came about because I have Highlander style Immortals showing up in games occasionally and 2 players with Immortals. Basically those guys without some kind of limitation could specialize in melee combat sword and have 14D plus in a very short time. Immortal NPC's with a few hundred or thousand years of life xp could have dozens or even hundreds of D in Sword. It's just stupid so I had to make something that made the skill levels a little more realistic.

However this rule is also good for long lived species like Wookiees, Hutt's, Yoda's etc. Some sort of upper limit besides base cost IMO should be there especially for the MEGA specialization crowd of PC's.

[Ur Athal]

Nice soft cap on the skill. I do something similar though I skip the up keep cost since that adds some potentially messy book keeping. Rather I limit the maximum skill to equal the governing attribute + 7D (Apprentice, Novice, Journeyman, Veteran, Master, Grand Master, Virtuoso are the grades for each die added to your base attribute). I am working up some training times, and specialization are not allowed except where the skill is logically an umbrella for detailed fields. So Scholar, Craft, Language are all specializations by nature, but Melee, Fighting, and Dodge are not. Additionally I use an attribute cap of 5D+2 after in game improvements. So the best I would ever have to deal with, without magic is 12D+2 and even with I am designing a very specific magic system that keeps everything manageable. In short I totally get why you did it, and in fact it does not seem unreasonable in the slightest. Sounds like some one wanted the perfect character... frickin' munchkins ;)

[Bren]

You want a specialization or the normal skill to be 10D and above but your character either doesn't want to or doesn't have the time to train in it (4 to 8 hours a day 5 to 7 days a week), then you have to put character points into it to keep it there otherwise it will drop -1 pip per session until it bottoms out back at 9D+2.For us, this would only effect the NPCs. We don't have any players with a skill of 10D or above. Maybe that's because we have only been playing Star Wars D6 since 1995 or maybe we are just cheap with handing out the CPs. ;)

[TinMan]

For us, this would only effect the NPCs. We don't have any players with a skill of 10D or above. Maybe that's because we have only been playing Star Wars D6 since 1995 or maybe we are just cheap with handing out the CPs. ;)

Well, I've been playing since sometime in mid 1994 and running since just before the end of that year so don't know about that :-)

cp reward: That's another thing this former player of mine has been complaining about, the fact that I have only been handing out say 7 to 9 cp an adventure tops. He thinks it should have been more like 9 to 14 cp for one session adventures. Well too bad for him cause now with my new campaign, adventures will most of the time take more than one session to complete thus the cp reward will go up.

As for it only effecting NPC's: The thing is since the cost is halved anyone can get 10D or more in a relative short amount of time if they specialize (which is what he has been doing to no end), but as I said most of us stop around the 7 to 9D mark and move on to something else not keep on freakin going!

So yeah I'm not sad to see this player go, I like my games big and complicated but I hate rules lawyers and munchkins.

[TinMan]

Nice soft cap on the skill. I do something similar though I skip the up keep cost since that adds some potentially messy book keeping. Rather I limit the maximum skill to equal the governing attribute + 7D (Apprentice, Novice, Journeyman, Veteran, Master, Grand Master, Virtuoso are the grades for each die added to your base attribute). I am working up some training times, and specialization are not allowed except where the skill is logically an umbrella for detailed fields. So Scholar, Craft, Language are all specializations by nature, but Melee, Fighting, and Dodge are not. Additionally I use an attribute cap of 5D+2 after in game improvements. So the best I would ever have to deal with, without magic is 12D+2 and even with I am designing a very specific magic system that keeps everything manageable. In short I totally get why you did it, and in fact it does not seem unreasonable in the slightest. Sounds like some one wanted the perfect character... frickin' munchkins ;)

Thank you, and interesting way of doing things!
One place where I won't put a cap on skills is for force users on their control sense and alter. A practicing Jedi is living the life and in training all the time so they are not affected by this upkeep cost.

[Grimace]

I've never had a player do this, but I have had the GM do it. He pulled the "if you guys don't like how I run the game (said after the third TPK in three different systems) then you can run your own game!" So we did.

[Whill]

So yeah I'm not sad to see this player go, I like my games big and complicated but I hate rules lawyers and munchkins.

I've made no secret out of the fact that I despise power gamers. Go play D&D or a board game or video game or computer game or MMORPG. True RP gaming is about roleplaying interesting characters and co-creating good stories as a group. In the rare occasions over the years a power gamer came into my game, they never lasted more than a single game session. They simply weren't invited back - No ultimatums needed on either end.


We don't have any players with a skill of 10D or above. Maybe that's because we have only been playing Star Wars D6 since 1995 or maybe we are just cheap with handing out the CPs. ;)

I've never ran a PC that had more than 8D in a base skill.


cp reward: That's another thing this former player of mine has been complaining about, the fact that I have only been handing out say 7 to 9 cp an adventure tops.

Yep, I'm cheap with handing out CPs.

[Bren]

Yep, I'm cheap with handing out CPs.Whill, you just think you are cheap. ;) We just finished a Star Wars adventure that has been running since 2009. We played around a dozen play sessions of 4-5 hours each. Bren, my PC received 16 CPs. That averages out to less than 1.5 CPs per session or about 1 CP per 3 hours of play. Frankly it was a lower award than I expected...I was expecting 20-25 CPs. :)

Now I have to decide whether to spend 8 of those CPs to raise one of my two highest skills from 8D to 8D+1 or broaden my character's skills by raising some of the 3D and 4D skills. :)

[Whill]

You know my vote is to broaden the mid-range skills!

Yeah, I've never had a single adventure take more than three sessions in one month, but those were rare. That is over my personal preference to get them done in no more than 2 sessions (even if it's an epic adventure that takes 2 long sessions). One adventure taking a dozen sessions over the course of 2 years is just too drawn out for my tastes.

But you are right, that much playing would equate to multiple adventures with little bit higher total CP reward if I was running it. So I guess I'm not too cheap.

[GamerDude]

Ok, it was a bit difficult finding the on-topic posts in all the other discussions but my 2 cents, for it's worth. I have two instances.

1) A regular game of Pathfinder that was a spin off from a game being run very badly, and me 'best friend' tells me if this one other player "doesn't stop pulling his bossy B.S." he would leave. Problem was, he was the worst most disruptive player at the table and his (about to become) brand new honey was the one doing everything he got pissed about. This player is very controlling, actually a bad player and GM yet quite skilled at abusing character building and rules manipulation. After some thought I explained to him that "I must have been at a different game than you" but here's what I witnessed - then proceeded to give a complete recap of the game. When he got pissed I gave him back his character sheet (I keep them between sessions) and said "Josh, you're a dear friend but you don't know how to get along with others and bitch at every little thing that doesn't go how you expect it to. We've talked about it more times than I should have had to with any mature adult (he was 43) and so you're out of the game until you grow up". - for the next week he kept wanting to meet for lunch and then he notified me we weren't friends anymore and that it had ended when I tossed him out of the game (and over the next months he gave me four other different times the friendship had been "over).

NOTE: When I told the group they breathed a sigh of relief - telling me they had decided if that player didn't go they were going to quit without saying a word.

2) Convention game. Player was at the first session-of a 2 session adventure. While I tried to bring the new players up to speed he kept interrupting me with side stories and what happened the previous session. THEN when he was tired of waiting (I think he was out of stories) he demanded (very loudly) that we get started we'd wasted enough time, he gave up the deadlands game to play in mine. I told him he needed to calm down lower his voice and stop interrupting so we could get started. I got tired of him and said "one more word from you and you'll be tossed fromt he game". Insert a few rounds of him continuing to mouth off as I told him to "get the hell away from the table he was done. He then told me if I "didn't get my ass in gear right now" he would "go to the concom and get me 'fired'" <insert me nearly hitting the floor fighting back the laughter> I very forcefully explained to him that I was a volunteer who paid to get in just like he did, and couldn't be "fired". "but if you want to go get me tossed out of the con you go right ahead that just means I get to go home early. Now do you want to keep wasting time acting like a two-year old, or we gonna play - and if its the former then get your ass up before I call for security to have you removed"

He shut up, we played.

Oh, his brother and wife were in the game... they just went dead quiet looking down at the table and never backed him up at all.

[Bren]

Ultimatums issued at the game table are a sign of immaturity. I don't see ultimatums in our play. I take that as a good sign.

[TinMan]

Ok, it was a bit difficult finding the on-topic posts in all the other discussions but my 2 cents, for it's worth. I have two instances.

1) A regular game of Pathfinder that was a spin off from a game being run very badly, and me 'best friend' tells me if this one other player "doesn't stop pulling his bossy B.S." he would leave. Problem was, he was the worst most disruptive player at the table and his (about to become) brand new honey was the one doing everything he got pissed about. This player is very controlling, actually a bad player and GM yet quite skilled at abusing character building and rules manipulation. After some thought I explained to him that "I must have been at a different game than you" but here's what I witnessed - then proceeded to give a complete recap of the game. When he got pissed I gave him back his character sheet (I keep them between sessions) and said "Josh, you're a dear friend but you don't know how to get along with others and bitch at every little thing that doesn't go how you expect it to. We've talked about it more times than I should have had to with any mature adult (he was 43) and so you're out of the game until you grow up". - for the next week he kept wanting to meet for lunch and then he notified me we weren't friends anymore and that it had ended when I tossed him out of the game (and over the next months he gave me four other different times the friendship had been "over).

NOTE: When I told the group they breathed a sigh of relief - telling me they had decided if that player didn't go they were going to quit without saying a word.

2) Convention game. Player was at the first session-of a 2 session adventure. While I tried to bring the new players up to speed he kept interrupting me with side stories and what happened the previous session. THEN when he was tired of waiting (I think he was out of stories) he demanded (very loudly) that we get started we'd wasted enough time, he gave up the deadlands game to play in mine. I told him he needed to calm down lower his voice and stop interrupting so we could get started. I got tired of him and said "one more word from you and you'll be tossed fromt he game". Insert a few rounds of him continuing to mouth off as I told him to "get the hell away from the table he was done. He then told me if I "didn't get my ass in gear right now" he would "go to the concom and get me 'fired'" <insert me nearly hitting the floor fighting back the laughter> I very forcefully explained to him that I was a volunteer who paid to get in just like he did, and couldn't be "fired". "but if you want to go get me tossed out of the con you go right ahead that just means I get to go home early. Now do you want to keep wasting time acting like a two-year old, or we gonna play - and if its the former then get your ass up before I call for security to have you removed"

He shut up, we played.

Oh, his brother and wife were in the game... they just went dead quiet looking down at the table and never backed him up at all.

Wow, it is interesting and a bit unnerving to find players in their forties can and do act that way (really not that surprising I guess though).
The 2 examples you give in a number of ways reflect the attitude and actions of the guy that I've been dealing with. My guy was not as rude or violent-ish, more a steady source of annoyance. He had been trying to back seat games master my sessions for a while with giving his own idea of difficulty numbers to players before I had a chance to respond, second guessing my difficulty numbers and interpretation of the rules.

What in sighted him to issue his Ultimatum last weekend was probably due to the following:

I recently put a cap on Turbolaser mods that he no doubt didn't like, as he thought he was the first one to try and modify them so heavily. I tried to explain to him that me and a friend of mine (and fellow current player) had done the same and worst years ago, which was part of the reason I was now putting a limit on the upgrade and power transfer optional rules (combined they just got out of control).

Plus it was only a few days later when I announced I was working out an upkeep cost on skills 10D and above which probably served to drive him over the edge with his ill fated Ultimatum.

I've never told anyone to leave the table though (I've wanted to a few times so good on you Gamerdude! :-)

In any case my next session which is set for today in the PM should be refreshingly free of second guessing and back seat games mastering. My other players are fairly solid even the noobs :-) Those guys are cool with my rulings and when they do have an issue with something it's more of a friendly discussion then a debate.



This Ultimatum that I received last weekend was I believe the first one I have ever been issued.

[GreenDragon]

I have had a similar situation. A player (power gamer) playing a Galactic Alliance Elite Commando of as high a rank as I'd allow/Independent Force-User. All the benefits of being a Jedi but none of the downsides. He ran all over the rest of the party, generally brushed aside opposition - often causing problems everyone else had to deal with.

The final straw was a situation where he had gotten into a Roman-style gladiatorial arena. There was a presumed Jedi there, we went there to rescue him, or find out why he was there at least. The player was only half paying attention, and his character was given a sword (though he was rolling values that tells me he was using his lightsaber skill) and up against a Sullustan with knives - in broad daylight. The NPC had no chance tpo begin with, and he kills the guy. Upon my declaring a killing blow, he asked if he could take it back, and subdue. I allowed it, but the master of the games then declared (MK style) "Finish Him."
His options: refuse, and take some punishment himself. Kill a helpless innocent. He chose the latter, and then got irate when I hit him with Dark Side. Since this was a clear Dark Side action, and I'd let lesser infractions slide previously, I stuck by the ruling. If killing helpless innocents isn't evil, I don't know what is. He declared that if he took any DS he was quitting. The game was more enjoyable for those that remained after he left.
He is still my friend, and has even gotten involved in another of my games. So it ended well for all involved.

My advice therefore is this: Everyone at the table has a right to have fun - including you as GM. If someone at the table is acting in a way that makes you not enjoy running the game, it is your right to do something to correct the situation. With power gamers that means, either they stop trying to "win" or show up the other players, or they go find a different game more suited to their style of enjoyment.

Regarding the rule itself. When I ran D6 extensively, I simply set Dice caps (5D attributes and 10d skills for a maximum of 15D. But really, I didn't need to, players who had skills around 10D total, found they could pretty much do whatever they wanted, and only major NPCs or monsters were a challenge. Cannon fodder - such as SW Stormtroopers could be mowed down in mass quantities without much fear of injury. Most of my players simply used the points to improve their weaknesses (bump low attributes, or learn new skills) or they would spend the points for bonus dice on important rolls. The latter did cause me to institute a house rule. Its been a while but I believe I limited it to doubling the base dice pool, and prohibited the use of Skill Points and Fate/Force Points on the same roll. Which, the players at that time suggested refinements to, in order to make it a simple rule for all, but had no problem with in principle. Especially since it would also apply to Villain NPCs.

[arcgaden]

I have always felt that those who do not like certain rules typically just have personality conflicts. When its with a GM from a player, its a control thing. GM's have the control, players do not, so they feel that imposing rules on them places more constraints on them in a world, which they do; the problem is of course that the GM has the full right to place constraints on players to maintain a game. Having been in the military and done lots of traveling around, and thus played with lots of slightly longer term gaming groups, I have found plenty of this in my GMing. I typically tell them: "I am placing this new condition on the game, because of this reason: We ALL know that John and Lucy are power gamers. They know it, we know it. This also acknowledges that fact and places a limit on the way they develop their characters. HOWEVER, I am willing to discuss other ways of perhaps providing alternatives to them. Any one have any ideas on how to tackle X?" Getting my players involved worked pretty well as a group, because these changes surely affected everyone, and players are an inciteful bunch. I bet they could all throw ideas out and help a GM make effective and useful changes to a game. One of the things I have always done is place Dice Caps on Attributes and Skills. Really this just comes down to mathematics. Looking at the difficulty rolls needed to succeed at stuff: What's the highest number? That number should ALWAYS be uncertain, even with a "maxed" out character. So taking star wars d6, 31+. Observe your average roll of 3. 3 x 10d = 30, 3 x 11d = 33, 3 x 12d = 36, right so I now I proved I know simple multiplication. So in that system, I like imposing a basic rule of thumb on the variance of those numbers, basically, one quarter of the time a character will be able to roll those numbers, and three quarters of the time they will not. Even if you consider the +1 and +2 with star wars d6, those numbers ring true consistently. 25% of the time, an advanced character will succeed in something Heroic just for a raw roll, not withstanding spending Character Points or Force Points, which they earn and can spend. So if I state that 10d+2 is the highest they can go (5d attribute, 5d skill), and THAT is the dice cap, it is the universal limitation on a character's ability. Outside of that, experience and luck play in (how the players roll, how the GM rolls, and whether or not a player has points to spend to stay alive). That's how the system should work to stay cinematic and hold that sense of adventure. With the 10d+2 cap, you do not have to force "spending of character points" to "keep up" up a stat, however it causes a greater distribution of spending, and perhaps imposes a saving system that allows players to change their style. As well, if a player has a character who is past that "cap" they would have a choice of freezing the Stat permanently (it stays as-is, and they can never raise it again), or they get the points back from the lost dice to use as desired. At any rate... I have also experienced being a player who had a disagreement with a GM, mainly based on a ruling around rolls, but I believe that is a similar issue: a difference in personality. He started by allowing me to have a character who was quite strong, and later reddacting that by ignoring the heightened strength despite a successful roll, arguments ensued and I decided to abandon playing with the GM. This definitely was a case of personality conflict, as we to date still do not "get along" fully, despite staying cordial to one another.

- Jeremy

[GamerDude]

Wow, it is interesting and a bit unnerving to find players in their forties can and do act that way (really not that surprising I guess though). Personally, since I started playing/running RPG's in 1981 - I've watched a steady shift from most people being mature here to have fun in a mutually beneficial way and able to discuss differences as mature adults - to immature self-focused whiny little b****'s who are the lowest common denominator WotC reached out to with first D&D 3.x and then 4th ed (by their own admission).



I've never told anyone to leave the table though (I've wanted to a few times so good on you Gamerdude! :-)
Thank you - although I hate having to take such actions. I go well out of my way as a GM to make players comfortable *attempting* any action it is possible for their characters to attempt. I didn't say *automatically succeed at everything* because not everything is possible, let alone always an automatic success. My favorite example:

SETUP:
Your character stands at the top of a 1000 ft cliff looking out over the ocean as the waves crash on the rocks directly below you. The character is a simple beginning level fighter, armor of your choice, single weapon of your choice - just absolutely nothing magical everything is mundane (and no access to any type of magical/high-tech assistance).

PLAYER:
My fighter is going to leap out off the cliff, flap their arms furiously, then proceed to fly out over the ocean.

ME:
First things first. In the back of your fighter's brain is their common sense screaming at the top of its 'lungs': "nooOOO!!!!!"
Now - Jump? no problem.
Flap their arms? again no problem.
Fly? yeah right!
Picture if you will the thoughts of sheer terror as your hapless fighter does a "wiley cyote" coming to a standstill at the top of their arc, looking down on the waves and rocks as they begin their decent plummeting to their doom. Go ahead and roll (using D&D rules) 100d6 of falling damage - No WAIT! I'm going to just take for granted you make your 'tumble check' negating 1d6 of falling damage so just roll 99d6 of damage.

{I hand you a character sheet}

Let me know when you've got a new character so I can find a place to work you back into the game.

Forgive me for being away so long - I've been ill for quite some time. I spent Nov/Dec being diagnosed with suffering from amongst other things "severe sleep {deprivation} due to significant Sleep Apnea" as my doctor at the VA Hospital put it. While I've never been very tolerant of things I perceive as rude (like not even listening to what a person is saying, just blasting the first five words etc.) I am quite embarrassed at my over-reaction to some of the comments made on my ideas here. Hopefully as I adjust to sleeping with air being forced up my nose (Yep, that's basically what a CPAP does) I will manage to avoid being quite so big an ass in the future. Thank You

[arcgaden]

That is some funny stuff. I love it.

[GamerDude]

That is some funny stuff. I love it.Thahnk Yew.. Tahnk yew berry mooch, I've got a million of them!

Another incident, a young gentleman who (again) was very insecure and tended to get very aggressive when thwarted or frustrated - his method of compensating for that insecurity.

This was back in 2002/2003, my classic Hackmaster 4ed campaign. Basically honor and inherited items play a big part in the game and your character's rep, and the encounter I ran (set up to be the start of a huge campaign arc) saw his cleric and the rest of the party loose everything particularly their heirloom items. (Players: "What do I have left?" Me: "Shirt, Pants, and Boots").

The rest of the group were tired of their endless long trip back and forth to this dungeon they were looting (that's another story) and refused to go after the orc brigands who had just soundly kicked their collective arses and took their stuff. Kris (the player with the cleric) had already been doing some nice back story about his stupid +1 longsword and, to get the group to change their mind, *really* kicked this into high-gear with elaborate description of how it was engraved by his gawd (Odin) and was originally his grandfather's etc. etc. so on.

Long story short, and I do mean short (another story) they find the brigand camp, defeat the last ones left in it - but in the process the Brigand Chieftan kills the cleric with his own sword - last words the cleric hears as the sword goes through the gut and severs his spine are "<insert sword thrust here> And say hello to oh-den for me <insert sickening twist of the sword here>"

Now here the group defeats the chieftan, gets Kris's char back to town and his dad (level 17 cleric compared to kris' level 3 cleric) raises him, gives him crap for loosing the sword - hell even having it (dad isn't dead yet) etc. Huge fight between him and I over the next few weeks no one is able to talk Kris down off the ledge he's even planning to challenge his "dad" to an honor duel over it.

in the end Kris tells me I can go to hell and I need to remember that "the GM isn't worth shit doesn't matter one lick - without players he has no game"

My reply was simply "and without a GM the players have no game - we both matter. Care to keep on down this road or you going to pull your head out of your arse?"

He left the group shortly after it spending the next four years joining and getting invited to leave a whole lot of other groups.

[TinMan]

Well it's been just past 4 months since Mr. Fantastic kicked himself out of my group via a laser guide ultimatum launched directly at me. I have to say that the games I have run have been far more enjoyable since his departure, both for me and my players. Everyone agrees the games are just better without "him".

Not that my group is now perfect we do have an issue with one player over planning but he has been spoken to about it and we are working to fix that on friendly terms, but again the games are WAY more fun now then before.

In my experience of playing and running since 1994 has been that over 90% of the time any given group has to have at least one trouble maker or "douche bag" if you will in it :-) Just like most work places do :-)