Tim Cain: PnP RPGs 5-10 years ahead of CRPGs

[The Game Guy]

This is an interesting interview with Tim Cain (http://www.edge-online.com/features/whats-tim-cain-up-to), the lead designer on Fallout, Vampire: Bloodlines, and Temple of Elemental Evil.

I found this the most interesting:


It?s interesting that for the open job positions at Carbine, pretty much all of them have the requirement of a deep knowledge of pencil and paper RPGs. So that kind of design element is still going to be a mainstay in your MMO?

TC: I?ve always felt that paper and pencil RPGs are still about five to 10 years ahead of computer RPGs in terms of different system mechanics that they try out. So there?s a lot you can learn from that side of the industry.

I would be interested to hear from others what they think of this.

[Whill]

I flunked out of everything above the initial computer programming class in college, but this makes sense.

On a side note, I've heard that the d20 system tends to not work very well to base the game mechanics of these MMO-types of games on. I'm not surprised.

[The Game Guy]

I flunked out of everything above the initial computer programming class in college, but this makes sense.

On a side note, I've heard that the d20 system tends to not work very well to base the game mechanics of these MMO-types of games on. I'm not surprised.

I think with the way that technology moves that MMO's will catch up. But I think as it stands right now that Tim Caine is dead on.

[Grimace]

I don't see MMO's getting anywhere close to a P-n-P RPG until they have something like a learning program to run the game. And that thought is scary enough. Skynet anyone?

There's too many limitations in an MMO, and those limitations are what has been created. In a PnP RPG, the "limitation" is imagination. In an MMO the limitation is how much the programmers have programmed in. Until a game can learn, adapt, create, expand and write itself, you'll never have something better.

Plus, and this is something that's selective depending on the person, what's more "real" to you as a player? Something that you can imagine seeing, touching, tasting, smelling or doing? Or something that has been rendered on a two dimensional computer screen based on someone else's idea of what something should look like?

Until an MMO is more than mere 2D visuals and audio on a computer screen, it won't (in my opinion) be better than the power of our own imagination.

[skeloric]

MMOGs won't reach the level of PnP without HOLODECK technology.
Won't that bake your noodle?
And we may be less than 50 years away from some sort of "prototype era".

[Stormchild]

I don't have lots of faith in the commitment of the industry to produce high quality computer RPGs. They put lots of thoughts and money into graphics but nearly none into storytelling.

This is not due to technical problems, there are some good told RPGs but not much (remember Bard's Tale?). P&P Solo adventures have shown back in the 90s how this can be done. From the storytelling aspect they are technical the same as computer games but far ahead in content.

When I see talk boxes (I don't know the insider lingo for this) whith 5 options where you can click through all of them until you find the right one and there are no bad consequences (f.i. Neverwinter Nights 1), I ask myself what this industry is doing.

I think they could do better but believe (maybe correctly) that their customers don't want complex storytelling. The only complex storytelling done in these games is in the bridge scenes where the players can only watch but not interfere.

But there are other options, I put my hope into. The open game community and the moder scene. Many Mods for Neverwinter Nights are better in storytelling than the original version and there are a lot of open game platforms that allow users to create their own games without much technical knowledge (I was very impressed by Multiverse). And this is only just beginning. In the future I expect to see much easier to use programs with which to create your own computer games.

[imported_Magman]

I see MMO's and PnP seeing the overall picture of what they produce in two different lights. The PnP is a game system that has as its foundation a story that was based on a concept that someone absolutely loved and wanted to immersed into the storyline. A MMO soul drive is to see how many people they can win over with High end graphics, "Uber" equipment and weapons to flaunt and bragging rights for killing Boss Man such and such. Even when a descent storyline is incorporated, it manages to get loss in the ferriswheel of repetition of making that next level. You never get a chance to stop and enjoy the scenery around you.

Neverwinter knights is my favorite MMO till this day (if you call it a MMO) You have actual RPGers given their heart into a storyline for a game that they love and believe in. Rather than big MMO's which hope to sell millions of copies of a waterdown storyline that fits everybody fancy.

[Stormchild]

Not stopping to see the landscape is also true for old-fashioned computer games (Non-MMO). Just take a look at Age of Wonders. This would make for a great roleplaying world, I even toyed around with the idea of using it instead of Aysle for my Torg campaign. But no one realizes, how much thought has gone into the background. Instead the only important thing is to chose the best mix of race, skills and spells. Computer games tend to cater to powergamers. I don't know if there are simply more powergamers out there than storytellers or if the way Computer games have been presented their whole history through (with some noteable exceptions) has only attracted powergamers. There is seldom another solution than pack the most heat and kill the boss in these games. There is an interesting scenario in Heroes of Might and Magic IV where you have to avoid a fight with the boss until you find a key item. This is not much storytelling but it is a big difference to the other scenarios where you have to pack enough heat to kill the boss.

[pathfinderap]

I would be interested to hear from others what they think of this.

Well, the guys right,
I once almost worked for Core Design, (They are the people who made Tomb Raider)

I once had a very long talk to Adrian Smith (if you have the Tomb Raider movie you can see him talk on the DVD Extras, (hes the guy in the leather jacket) with his step brother Jeremy Heath-Smith who was executive producer on both Tomb Raider movies,)

And I was offered a chance at a job due to my Experience and skill with Roleplaying games, (Adrian had played D&D once, and liked it and contrary to popular belief, Tomb Raider was not based on Indiana Jones but on D&D, true)

We got on really well, he is very easy to get along with,
he is a really nice guy,

[The Game Guy]

Well, the guys right,
I once almost worked for Core Design, (They are the people who made Tomb Raider)

I once had a very long talk to Adrian Smith (if you have the Tomb Raider movie you can see him talk on the DVD Extras, (hes the guy in the leather jacket) with his step brother Jeremy Heath-Smith who was executive producer on both Tomb Raider movies,)

Just curious- what kind of things did you guys talk about? I am very curious to hear what things were discussed and why you think that he is right.

[Stormchild]

I thought this thread was about, will computer games make roleplaying games obsolete? But maybe it got a bit off topic.

Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood the question.

[skeloric]

I thought this thread was about, will computer games make roleplaying games obsolete? But maybe it got a bit off topic.
It wasn't QUITE like you thought.
Its more of an issue of where technology is in the MMOGs than any particular fear of obsolescence.

[pathfinderap]

Just curious- what kind of things did you guys talk about? I am very curious to hear what things were discussed and why you think that he is right.

We talked about alot of things, We like alot of the same things, music, games, and things moved on to talking about RPG's,

I was offered a chance of a job by him after we talked about RPG's
he liked what I said,

RPG's will always be more advanced than computer games due to the human element involed, even if the holodecks as seen in Star Trek were made they would never compare to the interaction of human with human,
and due to that level of complexity Tabletop will always lead the way,
RPG's are more of an Art, where as Computer games (without the counter human element) tend to be glorified versions of "Simon says"

[Whill]

RPG's are more of an Art, where as Computer games (without the counter human element) tend to be glorified versions of "Simon says"

Well said!

[skeloric]

RPG's are more of an Art, where as Computer games (without the counter human element) tend to be glorified versions of "Simon says"
That was much more obvious in the old Infocom text games, but yeah spot on with 'Simon says".
Though I'd counter with a more rare children's game called "Mother, may I?" as being in the computer games as well.

[The Game Guy]

RPG's will always be more advanced than computer games due to the human element involed, even if the holodecks as seen in Star Trek were made they would never compare to the interaction of human with human

But the ever growing number of people playing MMORPGS and the shrinking number of people playing rpgs shows that MMORPGS are giving people what they want. Plus you can talk with people, there is voice chat, etc.


RPG's are more of an Art, where as Computer games (without the counter human element) tend to be glorified versions of "Simon says"

I have always enjoyed rpgs, let me get that out of the way. The the argument "rpgs are art" is pure horse****. They are games. Monopoly or checkers aren't art. They are games.

[pathfinderap]

But the ever growing number of people playing MMORPGS and the shrinking number of people playing rpgs shows that MMORPGS are giving people what they want. Plus you can talk with people, there is voice chat, etc..

Thats mostly due to time and convenience by far, most people have trouble getting free time at the same time as their friends,
and there is still a massive draw of mixing with live humans in MMORPGS,
it wouldn't have anything like this success without this human component, just try and imagine these game if they where only single player games,




I have always enjoyed rpgs, let me get that out of the way. The the argument "rpgs are art" is pure horse****. They are games. Monopoly or checkers aren't art. They are games.

Monopoly or checkers are board games, not RPG's,
RPG's are art, in the same sense of any "creative" past time

[The Game Guy]

Thats mostly due to time and convenience by far, most people have trouble getting free time at the same time as their friends,
and there is still a massive draw of mixing with live humans in MMORPGS,
it wouldn't have anything like this success without this human component, just try and imagine these game if they where only single player games

I am sure that time and convenience is part of why some people play MMORPGS, however there are also people out there who play them because it gives them what they want.


Monopoly or checkers are board games, not RPG's, RPG's are art, in the same sense of any "creative" past time

Well I guess we wil have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think rpgs are art and neither do a bunch of people. But if you feel they are then fine, I don't feel they are art, they are just games.

[skeloric]

"role playing" can be an artistic endeavor, but it is not a default outcome of RPGs -- I look to the D&D hackfest as the least artistic concept possible.
Nobilis seems to be "artistic", but some think it unplayable.

The "Once Upon A Time" card game is also very artistic.

But its a feature to be cultivated rather than assumed.

[The Game Guy]

"role playing" can be an artistic endeavor, but it is not a default outcome of RPGs -- I look to the D&D hackfest as the least artistic concept possible.
Nobilis seems to be "artistic", but some think it unplayable.

The "Once Upon A Time" card game is also very artistic.

But its a feature to be cultivated rather than assumed.

I am sorry, but calling role playing or rpgs "art" is simply trying to attach a word to rpgs in a mannor that is simply making them more then what they are, games.

[pathfinderap]

I am sure that time and convenience is part of why some people play MMORPGS, however there are also people out there who play them because it gives them what they want.

And the "time and convenience" of this game "gives them what they want"
but it would be nothing without the other live players involved



Well I guess we wil have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think rpgs are art and neither do a bunch of people. But if you feel they are then fine, I don't feel they are art, they are just games.

Don't you think that someone drawing or painting as a hobby is art?
Anything that brings a creative element is art,

But your view of this could depend on how you see the word art

[The Game Guy]

And the "time and convenience" of this game "gives them what they want"
but it would be nothing without the other live players involved

Well we may prefer tabletop rpgs over MMORPGS (though before I got my local group together I almost sold all my rpgs off and gave up) but there is simply about a mmorpg that gives the people the type of game they want. Time and Convenience isn't all of it, they like the hack and slash aspect. We just have to understand that and know its something we cannot change.

[pathfinderap]

Well we may prefer tabletop rpgs over MMORPGS (though before I got my local group together I almost sold all my rpgs off and gave up) but there is simply about a mmorpg that gives the people the type of game they want. Time and Convenience isn't all of it, they like the hack and slash aspect. We just have to understand that and know its something we cannot change.

The MMORPG's draw is graphics, sound, pick up and player non commitment,
non complex premise , human interaction, any time day or night,

Convenience,

If you already play D&D then this is great,

[Kalzazz]

The convenience is a big draw, but the 'pay every month' is a big turn off

Ive played some of them, and while they can make for a fun thing to do for a half hour or so instead of playing solitaire, cant really capture my attention to long

But, its a fun thing to fire up for a bit and whack stuff every now and then

[The Game Guy]

The MMORPG's draw is graphics, sound, pick up and player non commitment,
non complex premise , human interaction, any time day or night,

Convenience,

If you already play D&D then this is great,

Yes, but you continue to ignore the fact that MMORPGS give people what they want as far as playstyle as well. Its not just convenience that makes them a draw.

[The Game Guy]

The convenience is a big draw, but the 'pay every month' is a big turn off

Depends on how much you play. There are games like Guild Wars where you purchase the software and you can play all you like, there is no monthy fee.


Ive played some of them, and while they can make for a fun thing to do for a half hour or so instead of playing solitaire, cant really capture my attention to long

But, its a fun thing to fire up for a bit and whack stuff every now and then

Right. There are people out there who MMORPGS are a big draw for and provide the type of playstyle they are looking for, and there are some people (like yourself) who can play MMORPGS casually but the type of playstyle MMORPGS provide isnt enough.

[Kalzazz]

Guild Wars alas is very heavily multiplayer oriented, so its not something you can do casually in the background while doing other stuff

[skeloric]

I am sorry, but calling role playing or rpgs "art" is simply trying to attach a word to rpgs in a mannor that is simply making them more then what they are, games.
I wasn't actually trying to say that there is an intrinsic aspect of "art" in the RPGs but rather that there are those people who approach them as if they were improvisational theatre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Improvisational_theatre).
Improvisational theatre is an art form and if one uses an RPG as a tool to create a "limited audience" improvisational theatre -- the audience typically being the players themselves -- then RPGs have transcended the mediocrity of being "just a game".

Some people can play an RPG as if it were just "some game" like Monopoly but this where "min/maxing" and "Munchkin" and "Monty Haul" campaigns come from where the players think that there is some sort of optimal "WIN" scenario to be achieved.

Anyway, anyone who has ever looked at D&D and Palladium system can easily agree that RPGs are NOT art, thus I do agree and have agreed that they are NOT art.
Not intrinsically at least.
Art is added by how one approaches them.
This is where things like LARP come from in fact.

[Kalzazz]

My best LARP experiences are much closer to MMORPGs than theyve ever been to tabletop

Who cares what my motivation is, I may or may not have a clue what my fellow party members are named, but I get to vigorously smack people with a foam sword while trying to avoid the same

LARP to me has always seemed to compare more to Doom Deathmatch, stats pale in comparison with player skill, and theres only a vague pretense of a plot 'you kill everything that isnt on your team, because it exists!'

[skeloric]

My best LARP experiences are much closer to MMORPGs than theyve ever been to tabletop

Who cares what my motivation is, I may or may not have a clue what my fellow party members are named, but I get to vigorously smack people with a foam sword while trying to avoid the same

LARP to me has always seemed to compare more to Doom Deathmatch, stats pale in comparison with player skill, and theres only a vague pretense of a plot 'you kill everything that isnt on your team, because it exists!'

Are you certain this just wasn't a paintball team with delusions of gaming?

[pathfinderap]

Yes, but you continue to ignore the fact that MMORPGS give people what they want as far as playstyle as well. Its not just convenience that makes them a draw.

The playstyle is the minimum, mindless D&D hack n slash, kill them and take their stuff type play, it doesn't need a plot, and in a pick up and play game that is a massive convenience,

[The Game Guy]

The playstyle is the minimum, mindless D&D hack n slash, kill them and take their stuff type play, it doesn't need a plot, and in a pick up and play game that is a massive convenience,

Right but it gives some people what they want, something they cannot get from rpgs in a format that is easier.

Saying people only play MMORPGS because of ease is really missing the point of people doing something because it gives them what they want and is fun.

[pathfinderap]

Right but it gives some people what they want, something they cannot get from rpgs in a format that is easier.

Saying people only play MMORPGS because of ease is really missing the point of people doing something because it gives them what they want and is fun.

Sure thats the point, but a massive part of that comes down to convenience,
but game play is poor due to repation,

[Kalzazz]

Nope, done both Amtgard and Dagohir, costumes, character names and foam covered weapons

The most amusing adventure premise I remember was 'the Duke is hungry and wants an omelet, dragons have eggs, you know what to do'

[skeloric]

Nope, done both Amtgard and Dagohir, costumes, character names and foam covered weapons

The most amusing adventure premise I remember was 'the Duke is hungry and wants an omelet, dragons have eggs, you know what to do'
Inspired!
I love it!

[Kythian]

'the Duke is hungry and wants an omelet, dragons have eggs, you know what to do'

Pure... Awesome!

[The Game Guy]

Sure thats the point, but a massive part of that comes down to convenience,
but game play is poor due to repation,

For some its convenience and for some it's just that MMORPGS give them what they want and rpgs do not.

[pathfinderap]

For some its convenience and for some it's just that MMORPGS give them what they want and rpgs do not.

You can't say a MMORPG is better than a real RPG...


Well, unless you've had some really bad GM's in your past

[The Game Guy]

You can't say a MMORPG is better than a real RPG...

Well, unless you've had some really bad GM's in your past

In my eyes? No, I prefer rpgs over MMORPGS.

But you can't say that MMORPGS don't give people what they want and say its just because it's easy.

If you think that way you are just fooling yourself.

[pathfinderap]

In my eyes? No, I prefer rpgs over MMORPGS.

But you can't say that MMORPGS don't give people what they want and say its just because it's easy.

If you think that way you are just fooling yourself.

What? LOL, dude,
Giving them what they want, the way they want, when they want......"Convenience"

So yes, MMORPGS are easy

But each to there own, not everyone likes RPG's,

[Kythian]

I know several people that play various MMO's that look sideways at traditional RPG's. No matter how you slice it, there are those that will prefer MMO's to standard table-top RPG's.

On occasion I would rather play an MMO than a table-top game. Most of the time, I would rather play the table-top, but I'm not always in the mood.

MMO's and table-top RPG's cater to a similar yet distinctly different audience. Some players may not have the temperament for a table-top game (I know those people), and obviously there are those that don't have the temperament for MMO's. To say that an MMO is nothing more than a poor substitute for a table-top RPG or vice versa is suggesting that everyone prefers apple pie to applesauce. My aunt, for example, doesn't even like apple pie! (I know! She's probably an alien! But still.)

So, to say that one medium is superior to another is the classic comparison of apples to oranges. They're similar (both being fruits), but sufficiently different to make comparisons moot.

[The Game Guy]

I know several people that play various MMO's that look sideways at traditional RPG's. No matter how you slice it, there are those that will prefer MMO's to standard table-top RPG's.

Yep, it gives them the playstyle they want and it is not just about how easy it is to plug in and go.

Thinking otherwise is just silly.