Remake/Remodel: Cyberpapacy

[johntfs]

Back a few years ago and continuing to this day, comic writer Warren Ellis hosted an art challenge that involved "reclaiming old comic characters" and otherwise updating them into something readers today would find interesting. An example of this can be found here. (http://freakangels.com/whitechapel/comments.php?DiscussionID=7026&page=1)

So, in that spirit (and given that TORG) has been purchased by someone wishing to eventually resurrect it) I submit that we look at the various classic cosms and consider what should be added, subtracted or left be. Next up: The Cyberpapacy.

I admit that the idea of this Cosm is one of my favorites because it's so original and unexpected. The idea of blending Magic, Technology and Spirituality in a way that didn't create Shadowrun Mk 2.0 was great. Even better was the way that all this supertech was interpreted through a Dark Medieval prism was so cool. The Cyberpapacy was one of the great ideas for a setting I've seen. And yet, the execution seemed to fall short somewhat.

The church guys were nasty hypocrites, which fit. And their opposition seemed to be a bunch of chain-smoking cafe-dwellers who thought God was dead and planned to kill a load of clergy to drive that point home. Also, Cyberfrance was... France and it seemed to be not very well developed outside of Paris and a few places that were specific to certain adventures. Finally, as hemmed in as it was by Aylse, the Nile Empire and industrialized Core Earth nations, the Cyberpapacy never seemed to really "get off the ground" space station or no space station.

It seems to be that the Cyberpapacy could really benefit from a change of location. So, instead of having it arrive in France, what if it arrives in Syria, perhaps with Damascus as the location of the maelstrom bridge. And the goal they have is one similar to those Crusaders of a 1000 years ago - seize Jerusalem in the name of the Cyberpope.

Just think of the politics involved. Suddenly, the Crusades return to the Middle East. Hamas and Mossad are suddenly forced to work together against cybernetic Christian invaders. Plus, the Nile Empire had its own sites set on Mideast oilfields, prompting war between them and the new Cyberpapacy.

[copeab]

It seems to be that the Cyberpapacy could really benefit from a change of location. So, instead of having it arrive in France, what if it arrives in Syria, perhaps with Damascus as the location of the maelstrom bridge. And the goal they have is one similar to those Crusaders of a 1000 years ago - seize Jerusalem in the name of the Cyberpope.


Istanbul (Constantinople) would be a better choice, at least from a historical perspective.

[johntfs]

I'd need to look at a world map, but I think you're right. Instanbul/Constantinople it is, then. And of course the Cyberpapacy can begin moving southeast toward Jerusalem.

[monarch71]

Bringing more Dark Age/Medieval historical themes into the setting would definitely be interesting. For example, the Gnostic Christians, a major movement from the first several centuries AD, considered (this is gross over-simplification, but it'll do for the example) the entire physical world to be a sham, an imperfect and "evil" world created by the Demiurge, an in imperfect and evil creator. Let's assume that the Gnostics persisted as a secret heretical society on Magna Verita. The introduction of the GodNet might have greatly appealed to them, and the whole lot of them might have cast off their physical trappings in a "crusade" to the GodNet, claiming a large area as their own. This would mean that there was a literal war going on in the GodNet between the Cyberpapacy (who really are following a servant of an evil "creator deity" in the form of a Darkness Device) and the CyberGnostics. The Cyberpapacy would be constantly searching in the physical world for the hiding place of the Gnostic leaders' soulchips. They may or may not have them; it's possible they found a way to exist without any physical form whatsoever.

GT

[Kansas Jim]

As I mentioned in the Aysle thread, I was reworking the Cyberpapacy with more of an emphasis on the medieval mindset over the cyberpunk aspects. People who were around when the forums were on the WEG website may remember the Cyberpapal dragon I posted over there, a manifestation of spiritual evil rather than a big and powerful magical animal.

Another change I had in mind was that the Cyberpapacy naturally evolved into a high-tech reality, no Tech Surge needed, and so without the distractions caused by that event as in the original campaign material the realm was able to expand a lot quicker than it did before. With Aysle off in the Caribbean I had the Papacy expand into southern England as well as farther into Spain and also eastward. Fairly early in the war I was going to have the realm reach Italy and force the Roman Catholic Pope into exile somewhere (I hadn't decided where.)

I felt that the GodNet needed to be reconceptualized because it had become a jumble of ideas and concepts that didn't really fit together that well (it connects to Kadandra, Magna Verita and Pulse's cosm?) Some other RPG I read gave me the idea that the GodNet was what some sources call the astral plane and that spiritual means, not tech, should be the primary means of entering it. From there I came up with the idea that the Avignon Church had discovered this plane early on in its history (maybe one of the more esoteric branches of early Christianity discovered the necessary miracles before the Papacy absorbed and/or banned it) and they were able to use it to spy on their opponents in the material world, to communicate nearly instantly with distant outposts and hold secret meetings in a location that no one could spy upon. These advantages helped them conquer and then rule Magna Verita in spite of the Tech and Social axioms not really up to the task of supporting a worldwide empire. Then maybe a decade before the Earth invasion they developed technology which could also reach into the astral plane which allowed more of the clergy to utilize it but it also fell into the hands of secret sects and heretics (and on Earth, the rebels) which has begun weakening the Church's monopoly on power in the cosm and the realm.

I had a bunch of ideas for Magna Verita's alternate version of history and how the Avignon Papacy's beliefs differs from Earth's Catholic beliefs, but never really got around to writing any of them down and deciding which ones to use.

[Stormchild]

As Kansas Jim's reply shows it is not enough to look at one realm at a time but see them in context. When you place Cyberpapcy somewhere else it has consequences for Aysle which can expand farther and the new neighbours (f.i. Nile Empire) which are hampered in their growths. This said I like the idea of a CP in Istanbul. This is not only because of the historic implications but also there is a new element that the old CP did not have: religious war with the Core Earthers. While the old CP was looking actively for heretics, those were Core Earth agnostics. In Istanbul the CP would have to fight against another real faith: islam. This would add another twist to the genre. Not to forget the Patriarch of Constantinople is the head of all believers in the Byzantine-Orthodox faith. He has not many followers in Turkey but a lot of clout worldwide. He also has a strong base in Greece which would be a big obstacle for CP advancement. And the Russian-Orthodox church would surely support him. So we have a huge base for a world-wide underground movement.

I always thought the aim of the Cyberpope should be to conquer Jerusalem and Rome. Jerusalem for obvious religious reasons and Rome because the Pope would be the greatest spiritual opponent (I love the picture with the two guys from the Vatican Intelligence Agency featured somewhere in the Torg publications). Istanbul would be a good starting point for an invasion in these directions.

In addition, in this way the CP reality could control the eastern Mediterranean and the Black Sea. The CP ships are no use outside the realm while they are unstoppable inside the realm.

[shadowmane]

Kansas Jim, I would suggest that if the Pope went into exile, it would be somewhere in Latin America. Just remember, in making this suggestion, I know nothing about Torg, or what cosm exists in Central or South America.

[monarch71]

I don't know about doing away with the Tech Surge; it's a very visible example of how a cosm changed dramatically due to its interraction on Earth. Having major setting elements that can be traced to a recent event helps connect conceptually to the war.

Or perhaps not. The way it occurred was also nonsensical. I mean, did the Darkness Device essentially just decide to change the axioms based on the images that Hachi-Mara Two's chip showed it? And if so, why can't Darkness Devices normally do that?

GT

[Stormchild]

As I understand it a DD is not able to do anything creative. It needs a High Lord for anything except pure destruction but the High Lord is limited by his own imagination in the Axiom he lives under. So the creative input that led to the formation of the God Net came from a Virtual Experience chip showing Kadandra. The DD gladly used the informations from the chip to create a new reality. But maybe this was only possible because it happened in the dreamtime.

[Rerun941]

Just a random thought here, but I was thinking about the Crusades and such that were brought up... how about instead of the Cyberpapcy invading somewhere else... follow the historical pattern and have Spain get invaded by the Muslims! A Moorish cosm invades the Cyberpapacy.

(Crazy ideas like this is what happens when Rerun tries to mentally escape from work.)

[Kansas Jim]

I mean, did the Darkness Device essentially just decide to change the axioms based on the images that Hachi-Mara Two's chip showed it? And if so, why can't Darkness Devices normally do that?
The Tech Surge required the unmatched power of a plot device - because it happened at just the right moment on a maelstrom bridge which was passing through the dimensional barriers around Core Earth the Darkness Device was able to tap into the energies of Dreamtime (a CE pocket dimension) to power the massive increase in the Tech axiom and to refill transformed people with enough P-Energy that they could be transformed a second time to the new Cyberpapal reality.

Yeah.

[monarch71]

The Tech Surge required the unmatched power of a plot device - because it happened at just the right moment on a maelstrom bridge which was passing through the dimensional barriers around Core Earth the Darkness Device was able to tap into the energies of Dreamtime (a CE pocket dimension) to power the massive increase in the Tech axiom and to refill transformed people with enough P-Energy that they could be transformed a second time to the new Cyberpapal reality.

Yeah.

Heh. I think you get my point. Not that I'm complaining about that, really. I liked the novels.
It does make me think that the High Lords should be looking into re-creating the event just to harvest the massive possibility energy released.

GT

[Whill]

how about instead of the Cyberpapcy invading somewhere else... follow the historical pattern and have Spain get invaded by the Muslims!

I know it is impossible to make a game that won't offend someone out there, but I think in this day and age it would be poor taste to make an aspect of game where Muslims are the villain invaders, despite any historical basis. And besides, the real-life papacy also ordered their share of invasions in history so it goes both ways.

Since we're taking crazy ideas, how about a Cyberpapacy where Catholics and Muslims live together in peace and harmony! I can dream.

[monarch71]

I know it is impossible to make a game that won't offend someone out there, but I think in this day and age it would be poor taste to make an aspect of game where Muslims are the villain invaders, despite any historical basis. And besides, the real-life papacy also ordered their share of invasions in history so it goes both ways.

Since we're taking crazy ideas, how about a Cyberpapacy where Catholics and Muslims live together in peace and harmony! I can dream.

Well, it makes total sense for the Core Earth Catholics and Muslims to team up against the Cyberpapacy.

You know, I wonder what the Sufi take on the GodNet would be? Their religion deeply embraces other levels of consciousness.

GT

[Rerun941]

Well, it makes total sense for the Core Earth Catholics and Muslims to team up against the Cyberpapacy.

You know, I wonder what the Sufi take on the GodNet would be? Their religion deeply embraces other levels of consciousness.

GT

Particularly if the Cyberpapacy decided to go after Jerusalem. That's an important place for Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Might be reason enough for all three Core Earth religions to team up.

[skeloric]

all three Core Earth religions to team up.
"...They fight crime" LULZY LOL

[monarch71]

There's a thought. I wonder what the power of a hardpoint like the Temple Mount is? It's got to be off the charts. And most likely raises the Spirit axiom in the immediate area by 1, at least. Perhaps the Social axiom as well.

Would that make a lot of pilgrims' souvenirs from the area genuine talismans?

If you flesh out the conflict between the four religions (the real-world Big Three and the Cyberpapacy), it seems natural to look into the way that the religious and mystical heritage of each religion would be expressed in the GodNet and in possible new technology and cyberware. There may be, for example, an enormous city-sized manifestation of the Qaballistic Tree of Life in the GodNet, existing as a school of enlightenment for cyber-rabbis. Likewise, the Muslim corner of the GodNet may be organized into a traditional Seven Heavens of Jannah, not the literal paradise but a mirror of them to inspire the faithful. All of these cultures presumably exist or existed in Magna Verita, before being dominated by the faith of Pope Jean Malraux.

Might there even be a reflection of the faith of the secret Protestants, a humble road through the GodNet lined with parable-like reminders of virtues and sins, like an interactive version of Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress?

I always thought that the concept of the GodNet was a marvelous tool that perhaps didn't get a close enough look, despite having it's own dedicated sourcebook.

GT

[johntfs]

Well, the book concentrated more on the Net and not so much on the God. Also, let's not forget that the Godnet was ultimately forged by the Cyberpope's Darkness Device, so while there might be nodes carved out for other religions, they wouldn't be huge, noticeable constructs.

[monarch71]

Was the GodNet created by the Darkness Device, or did the Darkness Device simply create a stable access means to a pre-existing pocket dimension or sub-cosm? The GodNet exists through both technological and spiritual means (perhaps with some magic and social thrown in there); it's not just a shared virtual reality, but a different level of conscious existence, influenced by the beliefs of all the people in the cosm.

Personally, I think that the GodNet may be similar to the Land Below, with accesses to other virtual/astral pocket dimensions such as the ones in Tharkold and Kadandra. Might it even have some connection to astral realms magically reached through Aysle or psionically reached through Akashan psychic abilities?

GT

[Kansas Jim]

Was the GodNet created by the Darkness Device, or did the Darkness Device simply create a stable access means to a pre-existing pocket dimension or sub-cosm?
Originally it was said that the GodNet was created as a byproduct of the Tech Surge but over time it evolved into some kind of interstitial space between high-tech VX realities that connected with the Cyberpapacy, Kadandra, Tharkold and Pulse's cosm. The mechanics of this was never explained, just that if you traveled far enough through the unexplored reaches of the GodNet you'd eventually find yourself in the VX space of one of those other realities.

[johntfs]

I like the idea of the Godnet for the Cyberpapacy. One idea about nodes that comes to me is a possible resurgence of some version of the Assassins cult. Back in the day, the Assassins (who derived their name from Hashishin) would drug potential recruits with hashish and take him to an elaborate pleasure garden, calling it Paradise. There the recruit would be fetted and brainwashed into faithfully serviing the cult before coming "back to Earth." One could easily imagine the Godnet turned to such a use.

On another point, let's talk a little bit about the axioms. One thing that irritated me was the fact that despite having four axioms of 34 levels (0 -33), so many cosms and realms shared axioms. Five realms have Spirit axioms of 17, which seems excessive. So, let's take a look at the Cyberpapacy's axioms.

Magic 10

I like this where it is. It allows for magical creatures and some potent spell effects without causing magic to completely dominate the setting. I think this should stay where it is.

Social 18

The whole point of the Cyberpapacy is the juxtapositioning of futuristic technology with a Dark Medieval mindset. Social 18 isn't Medieval. According to TORG R&E, Earth hit this around 1850 AD, which is way too advanced for the Cyberpapacy. The books states that most of the Cyberpapacy tended to function of Social 13. So we should push this the rest of the way and have the Social axiom be 13. Note that this will make Psychology a contradictory skill, making it tough to deal with cyberpsychosis through non-spiritual means. Well, tough. A group of people who regularly burn others at the stake for heresy and witchcraft probably don't have a good grasp of the inner mind and psychological principals.

Spirit 14

Honestly, this seems low to me, especially in light of the idea that there are regions of the Godnet named Heaven and Hell. Let's shoot this up to a 19 allow mortals to access the Cyberpapal versions of Heaven and Hell. Bonus, "Dante's Inferno: It's not just poem, it's a (TORG) adventure!"

Technology 26

This seems fine where it is. One thing to consider that that the assembly line was probably an artifact of a Social Axiom of at least 18-19. So, it figure that cyberware would need to be "fitted" to each individual person and would need to be refitted (at some expense) to go from one person to another. This means that players couldn't just kill a bunch of cyberknights, go to a cyberlegger and get "geared up" from the spoils they took.

So, my modified axioms for the Cyberpapacy are:

Magic 10
Social 13
Spiritual 19
Technology 26

[monarch71]

It seems to me that lowering the Social axiom by that much would change a lot of things in the setting, especially superficially. For one thing, could a single monolithic organization dominated by one man control a large, spread-out geographic region reliably at social 13?

Now, removing the concept of the assembly line actually injects some interesting imagery. Cyberware, weapons, armor, and anything else would be made by hand, using tools that were also made by hand. They would be unique, and quality would differ greatly based on the creator's skill. And individual craftsman would have different visual flairs, from simple and utilitarian to baroque and highly decorative. A cyber-arm for a high-ranking bishop may be inlaid with semi-precious stones forming scenes from the Stages of the Cross.

One thought; which axiom covers artistic advancement? The Medieval period in Europe wasn't a high period for artistic skill (with some exceptions). The highly advanced art of the Classical period was largely lost, not to be regained until the early Rennaissance. Is this social? Technological? Neither, and not related to the existing axioms? It's possible that the 4-axiom set is not a truly inclusive description of a reality, after all.

GT

[monarch71]

Another thought (not entirely a new one, but interesting): His Holiness Jean Malraux has the power to consign the souls of sinners (meaning anyone he doesn't like) to Hell. At least, his version of Hell in the GodNet (there may be a more "real" and objective Hell somewhere in the GodNet, but I don't think they're one and the same). That Hell would be very similar to the Medieval version of Hell. Dante's version can stand in for this, being so iconic. However, it would be, essentially, a super-max prison, largely for political and ideological dissidents. Many of the inhabitants' bodies would be dead in the physical world, relegating them to the status of cyber-souls.

The point is that a clandestine trip to Hell to free a captured comrade or other enemy of Malraux would be a fantastic adventure. There could be a time-line to find him or her before the prisoner's body expired, or could include an attempt to find a soul-vacant body in which to drop the prisoner.

Has that one been used before?

GT

[Stormchild]

On the subject of hand-crafted tools: under our tech axioms there is already some very early version of MakerMods available. Just take a look at www.reprap.org. With the use of such a MakerMod everybody can print out all parts of a machine or complicated tool (though right now it is only possible with an array of different plastics). With improved MakerMods any hack shack could use a pre-programmed MakerMod - the designs loaded down from the GodNet - print out the parts and assemble them by hand. Of course any Hack Shack proud of its own work would (like any customizing garage) try to improve the design. Some Hack Shacks could of course be in a hurry, always on the run and build something quick and dirty.

On the subject of artistic low level of Medieval period: I am always astounded about how the Medieval period is viewed (and showed in many media). Of course during the dark age a lot of knowledge and craftmanship was lost but with the growth of cities craftmanship improved continually. Not to forget the travelling craftsmen who left inspiring art wherever they got a job. For instance Tilmann Riemenschneider and Albrecht Dürer were way ahead of any artists of their time. As someone had to pay for the art, the only buyers where the clergy and rich citizens (the latter used the art mostly for donations to churches). So, medieval art is primarily found in churches. But I agree with your assumption that art is not covered by the 4 axioms. It is possibly a combination of Tech and Social, though.

[Stormchild]

On the subject of cyber hell: there is a version of hell and purgatory in the GodNet. The bodies of people consigned for cyber hell are used as hosts for spirit chips. But apart from that idea alone there has not been made very much use of it in the description of the Cyberpapacy.

[Kansas Jim]

On the subject of artistic low level of Medieval period: I am always astounded about how the Medieval period is viewed (and showed in many media).
It also tends to ignore that there was more to the world than medieval Europe. China, India and even Mesoamerica all produced a lot of artwork during the period and pushed Social and Technological advances along.

[Apieros]

Again, too long to post here, but:

The GodNet and The Grid (http://web.me.com/stormknights/workshop/godnetandgrid.rtf): A reimagining of the Grid and the GodNet in a world where Tharkold, not Kadandra, caused the Tech Surge.

GodNet 2.0 (http://web.me.com/stormknights/workshop/godnet20.rtf): The revised GodNet, based on the background from The GodNet and The Grid.

Some preliminary ideas on revising the Cyberpapacy:

Cyberpapacy: The Vision of the New Sacrament (http://www.justintimeadventures.com/pipermail/torg/2010-March/042401.html)

Cyberpapacy 2.0 (http://www.justintimeadventures.com/pipermail/torg/2010-March/042415.html)

WL Expansion for 2.0 (http://www.justintimeadventures.com/pipermail/torg/2010-March/042432.html)

Cyberpsychosis as a Spiritual Struggle (http://www.justintimeadventures.com/pipermail/torg/2010-March/042900.html) (another WL Expansion)

Why people convert to the Cyberpapal faith. (http://www.justintimeadventures.com/pipermail/torg/2010-March/042411.html)