TORG gamebook/sourcebook requiring the most extensive rewrite, in your opinion...

[skeloric]

While we could ARGUE, I hope can accept each other's opinions as being opinions on this.

Personally, I'm torn between books to offer for this dubious distinction.

Living Land desperately needed a revised edition even during the original span of the game's publishing run.
There were also certain problems in design that make it exceptionally weak as a stand-alone setting.
As stated by several over the years, they entered into the design of the Living Land with the wrong focus -- an act that has proven to have been a blunder in retrospect.

But then, Nippontech has aged badly in its presentation of "near future" technology -- by certain values (particularly computers) offered in Nippontech we are well past Tech 24 and onwards to Tech 25.

Then I look over towards Aysle and think it needed to be less "vanilla" in its presentation of elements that were NOT typical D&D fantasy.
There was some perpetual ongoing disagreement due to presentation:
--Was it generic fantasy or wasn't it?
--Should they have chose one direction and stayed with it?
We may never know for certain what they were trying to accomplish, only what they DID accomplish which was a muddled mess.

Orrorsh.
I want to say that I like it as written because I do think it great.
But the large swaths of uninhabitable territory that were once nations?
Frankly, they should have left us with a bit more of Europe/North America and placed the invasion bridge in SOUTH America.
Strengthened up the setting for stand-alone use.

Nile Empire.
I can't really bring myself to say anything bad.
Maybe a slightly more customizable foundation in order to choose the level of "Pulp Power Usage" that was right for the group.
Maybe a better balanced "equation" that negated the need to expend Possibilities (which a follow-up book did in fact offer).

Space Gods.
Social as Psionics?
*Sounds of being noisily sick*
I once championed Social as Psionics because I loathed the idea of change, but if they had offered a Psi Axiom in that book and offered Psi Axiom values for all extant Cosms to that point I would have preferred it in hindsight.

THARKOLD...
OOF.
I'll come back to this and add in more as I have to depart right now.

[skeloric]

Tharkold.
I can't find fault with this.
Others will, but I can't.

Land Below
This is exactly what the Living Land was missing: CONFLICT, STORY, VARIATIONS IN SCENERY, VARIATIONS IN PRESENTATION.
There may be problems to this book but with Living Land for comparison I see it more as a solution.

[skeloric]

CYBERPAPACY
I honestly think the cyberpsychosis rules to be antithetical to the premise, but that is about it.
A non-cybernetic Magna Verita as an explicit option would be nice as well.

I think I've reached the end of the list of books I can think of to focus upon.
I've missed the Storm Knight's Guide and High Lord's Guide but its been too long since I opened these books and plus I'll leave some for others to detail.

As to which one I picked for being the one that needed the most revision?
I'm still conflicted.

[Stormchild]

First of all: Aysle. It is in a difficult market, the fantasy genre, a rather overused genre. So it need to be better, not worse than the standard.

Standard is of course D&D, and I think Aysle has the potential to be far better, but it really made no effort just to be good. As I said in another thread, the Aysle sourcebook lacks a lot, beginning with a map that at least shows every hot spot and city featured in the text.

Take Talislanta 4th edition as a role model (of course this is a huge tome and cannot be compared to a WEG sourcebook). There every culture is featured in nearly the same format: Ancestry, Society, Customs, Government, Magic & Religion, Arts, Language, Defenses, Commerce, Worldview, Cities, Places of Note, some creatures typical for the region.

In a separate section there are also Templates for each region.

Aysle had a different approach to the standard fantasy setting. It was meant to be a high fantasy setting in renaissance. But it was presented as the standard fantasy setting that is not sure about what tech level it is located in. A problem seen in many other fantasy settings. I don't know where I would begin with rewriting Aysle, I think it needs a whole new approach instead of working on what already is there.

The other settings are not such a great problem. Living Land f.i. is more a problem of presentation than content. It could be much more interesting when the book featured drawings of dinosaurs. Use Kansas Jim's idea (I think it was him, but am not sure) and describe different tribes with different stats due to initiation rituals or tasks and it should work.

[skeloric]

Living Land f.i. is more a problem of presentation than content. It could be much more interesting when the book featured drawings of dinosaurs. Use Kansas Jim's idea (I think it was him, but am not sure) and describe different tribes with different stats due to initiation rituals or tasks and it should work.
Multiple people really, but Kansas Jim may have started it.

[Stormchild]

Another thought about cosms. In the above post I wrote about how the cosms where presented in the sourcebooks. Afterwards I realized, what really set Torg cosms apart from any other RPG settings are the world laws. So I asked myself, which world laws enhance the uniqueness of a cosm and which don't.

So maybe this thread could be extended to a discussion on which world laws are used to enhance the setting, which world laws aren't and which world laws are basically obsolete. I think the Orrorsh world laws are the best. They really enhance the feeling of fear and despair. On the other hand the Living Land world laws are pretty useless to give players the feeling of a unique setting.

[skeloric]

Yeah, I once wrote a sample set of Living Land World Laws which i have since lost but I can offer them up still I think:

The Law of Sensation
It was odd really that the book went on and on about the importance of SENSATION but yet it wasn't reflected in any World Laws.
This would offer a free "Up" for taking a wound, even one self inflicted. The wound could then NOT be healed by Miracle but must instead be experienced to its fullest.
The wound and Up would have to occur in the same combat.

The Law of Harsh Nature (or similar name)
This would be all extant World Laws as offered in the book.
-- Deep Mist
-- Compass Curse
-- Lost possessions (I think I'd drop this or weaken it however).

The Diversity of Abundant Life
This would be the Law that makes different Edeinos tribes actually DIFFERENT.
It would also drop humans into different "tribes" as well.

It never went very far but I REALLY liked my first one and the third one.
I think i might just keep the "Compass Curse" and even drop the Deep Mist to be a natural phenomenon and thus not perpetual -- thus the Second would just be "The Compass Curse".

In short, I agree.
Reflecting upon World Laws and how well they actually showcase the Cosm is potentially part of the overall premise of revision/rewriting.

Aysle's Law of Observation is another I'd hold up for further scrutiny.
(The Infamous) Jasyn Jones really brought this to many peoples' attention -- mostly by the usual tactic of presenting the most extreme case that had truly an abysmally remote chance of being applicable as if it were a common threat.
Even so, despite that tactic I had to agree with his assessment:
"Either a World Law does SOMETHING (which then still needs to be verified as USEFUL in order to be retained), or it does NOTHING in which it is taking up space."

Put it plainly, what exactly does the World Law DO and is it more hassle than its worth?
Unfortunately, what it does is cause dissension and strife and extremely extreme examples being offered showing how bad it is when applied EVEN WHILE it also seems to do nothing.

[Kansas Jim]

I think the Living Land wins hands down, people were wanting a rewrite of it before WEG had even finished releasing the core sourcebooks.

[Stormchild]

I love the Law of Sensation. Btw, I already used it in some way. In order to make Edeinos more threatening, I gave them an up condition each time they received a wound. But I never thought to put it into a world law.

To put the deep mist, compass curse, Love of Life and lost valuables into one law is an interesting idea. But I am still not sure if those really enhance the setting or make it more complex. Each time I play Living Land with new players, I have to argue with them about this. I don't like the "because I say so, maybe you will understand later" GM fiat, but I don't want to give away too much about reality mechanics when introducing new players. Also, the compass curse makes it nearly impossible to place any reasonable adventures into the Living Land.

This is the reason Living Land adventures tend to be like get in, get lost, try to find out. F.i. if you wanted an adventure like Escape from NY you have to get to NY first, but you won't find it. Of course you can circumvent this problem, so half of the adventure would be to find a friendly edeinos tribe, explain what NY is and let them show you the way, but it tends to get boring if you do this too often. Just as if the only Nile Empire adventures would be exploring pyramids.

I never understood what Lanala's Love of Life did that could not have been covered by the Law of Lost Valuables. Why not put it into one world law that states, you tend to lose dead things and they decay at an alarming rate. What does it do in adventures? You have to watch over your equipment and have to hunt fresh food every day. Is that really original? And it tends to be too hard on new players while it is no problem for experienced players. This doesn't help making new players fans of the Living Land.

So, I use the Law of Savagery instead. Why not have two realms with the same World laws? The Land Below already borrowed Law of Action from the Nile Empire, why should it not have borrowed a world law from the Living Land too.

Speaking of Land Below, I would have thought it better to use Law of Drama instead of Law of Action. Law of Action in addition with Law of Savagery means you always attack all-out and use two Poss for it, this is an overkill when the players notice what they can do with it. Instead the Law of Drama is no world law that gives a bonus but a world law that helps create a unique setting.

[Stormchild]

I pulled out of most discussions with Jasyn Jones, so I don't know what his argumentation was against the Law of Observation. I love it, but I am biased by experience. One of the best was a Shadowrun magician transferred to Torg who wanted to show an Ayslish what a grenade does. He showed this with an illusion in Aysle and was really shocked to see that the illusion created a small crater. We had a lot of fun with this and the following test series of what an illusionist can do. But of course, it can be misused quite a lot.

I have much more problems with the laws of honor and corruption. What does it really do in game play? Corruption is reflected in the appearance, but only in the Light area. What happens when areas switch? Corrupted areas are having problems to harvest enough food. So, the more corruption wins, the more people are dying of starvation. How could Aysle have survived under Uthorion's rule for so long? It could be an interesting addition to the setting but needs a lot of explanation and thinking through, that wasn't done by WEG. And to give Uthorion and other extremely corrupted beings the power to slay with a touch is just too much. A bonus for some magic skills would be better.

And what happens to the people? Are they becoming ugly in an instant? Do they change their beviour or even their mindset when the area switches? And what happens when the area switches again? Do the ugly people revert back to handsome? And if they do, do the other people remember that? I toggle around with the idea that the area does not switch as it is presented but instead the former area becomes a pocket dimension and another pocket dimension of the new inclination is put in its stead. So dark aysle and light aysle exist as pocket dimensions and the opposite as part of the realm.

[skeloric]

Corruption making one ugly was a homage to the classic fairy tales and medieval tropes of form displaying trueness to the word of God.
The more beautiful/attractive, the more one must be in God's favor.
Ugliness wasn't just unfortunate, it was a sign of God's disfavor.
After all, God was a bored little bully of a child too busy tormenting creation through acts like passing instant judgments that were easily displayed merely by one's appearance than instead of doing anything else that needed doing.
If one was ugly, they were also evil.
When one equates the state of one's appearance with the state of one's moral standing, things get a little... ugly.
Also, every accident was a reflection upon one's moral standing as well.
Bad year for crops?
Must have sinned a lot for God to take so much demented sociopathic delight in punishing you so.
Aysle's "Good is beautiful and Evil is Ugly" might actually be quite out of place in Aysle but it suddenly seems as if it would make a damn good bit of sense if it were applied Magna Verita
Such foul philosphy would be more in keeping with Magna Verita's equally foul and sociopathic perversion of a proper Christian worldview.

[Stormchild]

I think the laws of honor and corruption where not fully thought through. Aysle was meant to be a stereotypical fantasy world without being stereotypical. It is not original in its makeup at all, but the other cosms aren't too. Torg has used two methods to create unique settings.

1) Cross two stereotypical settings (Nile Empire a cross of ancient egypt and Pulp, Cyberpapacy a cross of Middle Age theology and cyberpunk, Tharkold a cross of splatter horror, cyberpunk and post-apocalyptic scenario), Space Gods (antiquity and space travel) Nippon Tech (the distopian economy of cyberpunk, Ninja and James Bond, though this is somewhere in-between as martial arts and Ninja have always been a staple of spy-movies),
2) Expand on an existing genre and use the world laws to give a stereotypical version of the genre its own flavor (Aysle, Orrorsh, Living Land, Land Below)

It looks to me as if the first approach was a big success with the exception of Tharkold where it was overused, while the second lacks a lot. It only worked quite well in Orrorsh as the world laws there are great to emulate the horror genre. So either you cross two genres or find what is at the heart of a genre to create a unique Torgesque setting.

Just to play a bit with the thoughts, what genres are missing we know from books, comics and movies. My first thoughts are
- Hong Kong movies (Sword and Sorcery with martial arts),
- Space Opera (Star Wars),
- Classic SF (exploration of new worlds, Star Trek, though it is a part of Space Gods, it is not really used there)
- War in space (Battlestar Galactica)
- Post-apocalypse (though Tharkold crossed it in it did only scratch the surface there),
- Ancient civilization (crossed in Space Gods but not really used)
- Ancient mythology (crossed in in Aysle and Space Gods but not really used)
- 4-colour superheroes
- Contemporary stories (Last action hero shows what this genre divides from action based real life stories like f.i. panic room, but it could be argued that this is covered in Nippon Tech)
- Detective action (CSI, this is covered with Core Earth)
- Swashbuckling (maybe I play Aysle wrong as this could be what Aysle is meant to be. This would mean Aysle is a cross between Swashbuckling and classic fantasy, maybe Aysle should be seen as two distinctive realms, dark Aysle being a cross between horror and classic fantasy with some ancient mythology thrown in, while light Aysle being a cross between fairy tales and swashbuckling)

[Stormchild]

I don't think it is necessary to re-invent Torg. Heck, I tried and realized this would be a totally different game. Why still call it Torg and stick with the Torg mythology and the problem that nobody knows what will happen to WEG when it is suited much better for a new RPG all on its own.

The biggest problem of Torg when thinking about new settings are the constraints put on the setting by placing the cosms on one planet. I think the explanation in Space Gods is crap - here we have a cosm of many planets while everywhere else the cosm is only one planet, but if Core Earth would expand to the stars, any new world would become part of the cosm. Sounds like a cheap circumvention around the problem that needn't be there. Why not define a cosm as the whole universe it is located in? In Fantasy and mythology this means the stars are the worlds where the gods live, while in SF this means there is lots of space to be explored.

I would like to improve Torg on the basis it has now. There are three possible settings for that thought:
1) Torg as it is, improving on what material has been published
2) After the war, inventing a world based on the material published
3) another invasion in another dimension out of the infiniverse

[skeloric]

Just to be certain that the opinion is out there, I really do not care for the "After the 1st war" scenario -- mostly as I see the 1st war bungled so badly by developers and how its completion was bungled so badly in War's End.
I just want a chance to start over at "Day 1" of the invasion and tell a modern story.
Link in the idea of people actually finding out that the invasion had occurred by noticing that large swaths of the internet had vanished or that cell phone coverage was suddenly less than functional.
But 18 years ago was when TORG appeared and what was thought just barely possible then, is considered silly now as we passed most of it back in the mid to late 90s.

One thing was that the stated notion of applying a point value could easily have a team of Storm Lords wandering the Earth and telling Epic stories to not only re-instill the Ords but even to enable all in immediate hearing to transcend to being heroic Storm Knights and in so doing win the war in 18 months, being THEN ready for an after-war campaign that could involve those Storm Lords applying dimthreads as they go from battlefront to battle front overthrowing the High Lords wherever they went until at last they discover a new invasion is being planned for their world once again.

I just prefer a relaunched first war in my hands where it could actually progress towards a sensible conclusion that I could work off of rather than a sudden nonsensical War's End and its aftermath.

[Stormchild]

Ok, I forgot to say that in order to build a Torg after the war, first of all the war has to be concluded. My feelings on War's end are essentially the same as yours. This was no way to end a pretty good storyline, this even was no real adventure. It reduced the players to observers. The authors of the Torg 2000 campaign wrote another version of war's end and I think this is the only way to make the option work.

Btw, I am a fan of adventures after the war. I loved how Babylon 5 was done. It begins as a follow-up of the Minbari-Earth war, which in some way has been influenced a lot by the first Shadow-war and it doesn't end when the second Shadow-war ends. Instead it shows how the end of the war is but the beginning of new turmoil.

Back to Torg. After the war, the world has to come to grips with different realities being established on Core Earth (at least that is how I would prefer war's end to be) and the front isn't that clear anymore. Different fractions in each realm (and especially in Core Earth) vie for power. Not all High Lords are gone, but they have lost power (Mobius is much more interesting as a villain in hiding plotting world domination in the famous pulp style). The former minions of High Lords plot their own ascent to power and eke out their own domains. With the Kanawa corporation falling apart, other companies try to take over as much from that juggernaut as they can...

[skeloric]

I think I'd rather put the "after the war" scenario on the back burner and instead focus on enticing those gamers who had not even been born when the first iteration folded back in 1995 -- those who will be getting into RPGs in the next year or two as they hit 13 -14 -- and focus on getting them on board.
Throwing out an "after the war" scenario for what is to the majority of new gamers considered "ANCIENTEST HISTORY" might not be what TORG needs.

I think the "after the war" could be viable, but it really should not be a major focus.

[Kansas Jim]

The biggest problem of Torg when thinking about new settings are the constraints put on the setting by placing the cosms on one planet. I think the explanation in Space Gods is crap - here we have a cosm of many planets while everywhere else the cosm is only one planet, but if Core Earth would expand to the stars, any new world would become part of the cosm. Sounds like a cheap circumvention around the problem that needn't be there. Why not define a cosm as the whole universe it is located in? In Fantasy and mythology this means the stars are the worlds where the gods live, while in SF this means there is lots of space to be explored.
Uh, what? A cosm IS defined as a whole universe. I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

[skeloric]

I'm glad you asked that KJ, I just thought I was misunderstanding.

It is as he says, the Cosm encompasses everything within.
Core Earth lives in a very big universe but it is all the Cosm of "Core Earth" and it all is subject to Core Earth Axioms.

[Stormchild]

Looks as if I had misinterpreted something. I was sure I read it somewhere but couldn't find it now. So, it seems you are right.
So we could have a Torg SF setting that is more than just Space Gods without changing the rules.

[skeloric]

This is where it will bake your noodle:
Core Earth is currently Social 21, Magic 7, Spirit 9, Tech 23 all across the Cosm -- IF there were any extraterrestrials, they'd use the same Axioms.
But, should "we" on Core Earth ever get to Tech 30, we may likely find an entirely empty Cosm.
Lots of stellar masses and such but no other life.
While this may not sit well with those among the players and GMs who firmly believe there is extraterrestrial life in our universe, there is no reason to believe such is true in Core Earth's Cosm.
Indeed, Core earth's one brush with ALIEN LIFE arrived from another Cosm.
But, we haven't even gotten to the wonky part.
Here comes the wonky part:
How much of "OUR" (Core Earth's) universe did the Space Gods travel through on the way to Core Earth itself?
I've asked this question before and I really don't expect a definitive answer but I will offer one:
They arrived into our Cosm just beyond Pluto, etc. by what I could recollect in the book.
This could very well mean that the rest of the Universe is only "sort of" there.
It might just be very very fancy optical illusions played across a spherical boundary "wall" so large I don't even want to consider its total surface area.
If this were true for Core Earth, it might be the ultimate event that drove them over the edge.
But as it is, we have no way of knowing.
The background bit in the Space Gods book certainly sounds as if they arrived into our Cosm not very far beyond the edge of our Solar System -- which has me suspicious, but I can't really know.
Personally, I like it.
It makes Core Earth "tidy" in a way.

But my own private suppositions do not affect the game's interpretation as frankly, there is none.
Since Core Earth has barely left its "home world" to travel to the moon and also that all invaders have focused solely upon Core Earth, the true nature of Core Earth's "universe" is unrevealed.
There is a mention -- but mostly as an example -- of Core Earth's Axioms covering its entire Cosm, universe and all, but there is no reason to believe that such means that the entire universe is actually attainable.

Mostly though, this was probably EXACTLY the sort of thing you were railing against so you are quite free to disagree with my assessment.

[skeloric]

What bothers me most is that I like the overall feel of most of the Cosms thus far (excepting Takta Ker which seems to lack such) and i worry that filling the Cosms out properly might entail quite a bit of material that ultimately warps or or otherwise ruins the actual "feel" of the Cosms.
While we could argue for or against their "NEEDING" their "feel" warped/altered/ruined, my larger issue is could we really think up enough stuff that didn't do such things to the Cosms while adding to their overall presentation?

[Stormchild]

They arrived into our Cosm just beyond Pluto, etc. by what I could recollect in the book. This could very well mean that the rest of the Universe is only "sort of" there. It might just be very very fancy optical illusions played across a spherical boundary "wall" so large I don't even want to consider its total surface area. If this were true for Core Earth, it might be the ultimate event that drove them over the edge.

Does a falling tree make a sound if no one is there to listen?


But as it is, we have no way of knowing.

We have. A Storm Knight could go anywhere with a magic portal or a Space Gods ship with a talisman. If it might be observeable it is either there or isn't. What happens when a Space Gods ship with a talisman on board is transported to Takta Ker and tries to explore the solar system there. Will it simply bounce off a glowing wall?

And this is what I understood, maybe wrongly, that a cosm where spacetravel hasn't been discovered just has no other planets, that the one world is all there is in the cosm. From the moment inter-planetary travel is achieved, the planets in the solar system come into existence and become part of the cosm. But when does this begin? The moment the moon is watched for the first time or the moment when we had the theoretical means to reach Pluto? Or the moment sputnik was launched? Or when Gagarin was put into space as the first man or was Leya enough? Or did we need Armstrong to land? It is too wonky for my tastes. The easier way is that each cosm is not only the world but the whole solar system the world is in, explored or not expored no matter. While another solar system is simply another matter.

If Einstein is right (if he isn't this is a matter of a higher tech axiom), there is only one way to reach another solar system, taking your time in an automated or generations-ship. That does't say anything about what to expect when you reach it after hundreds of years. The easiest way would be to say this is another cosm with its own axioms and world laws. In space, between the planets and solar systems there is no other reality, so no conflicting realities, meaning even ords take their reality with them, but when they arrive in a planetary orbit, they are just ords in another reality.

Interstellar travel the Space gods use is intradimensional travel. They use their psionics to find stargates (though even them don't know what these stargates are) and jump through them. This is why they need to plant reality trees on earth but not on planets in the Star Sphere. But how do they travel between the planets in our solar system? Of course, they use living ships, but are these poss-rated or ords? It would be easiest for them to be poss-rated but how do the Space Gods make poss-rated ships? Another explanation would be that the poss-rated on board fill the ship with poss when it disonnects.

My explanation, I think, is easier. As long as the ships are in space, there is no conflicting reality. That is the reason the Space Gods use geomantic shuttles (as far as I remember it is not clearly stated if they are tech or biotech) for landing as they are tools and will only fail when the crew disconnects. Knowing about the reality mechanics behind interdimensional travel, the Space gods use poss-rated crew members the best way they can. There are also bio-tech-ships that can land, but it is a difficult procedure closely resembling a crash-landing. So they could be expecting a disconnection when landing with bio-tech ships.


Since Core Earth has barely left its "home world" to travel to the moon and also that all invaders have focused solely upon Core Earth, the true nature of Core Earth's "universe" is unrevealed.
There is a mention -- but mostly as an example -- of Core Earth's Axioms covering its entire Cosm, universe and all, but there is no reason to believe that such means that the entire universe is actually attainable.

I can't remember this mention of Core Earth's Axioms covering its entire cosm and couldn't find it on a cursory glance now. Do you know where to find it?


Mostly though, this was probably EXACTLY the sort of thing you were railing against so you are quite free to disagree with my assessment.

Yes, apart from the mention of Core Earth's Axioms covering its entire cosm, that is what I was referring to. I am not sure if I understood it correctly. With me, the notion stuck that Core Earth is only on our planet while every other planet in our universe is another reality up to the time when our tech axiom makes visiting these planets possible. While other realities, that don't even theorize for the existance of other planets, just have none.

As far as I understand the reality mechanics, reality is formed by the living. What they believe to be true is true. But what if there are no living? Does this mean nothing is true as no one is there to believe something to be true? If a cosm is only inhabited by amobae, as they only recognize their direct surroundings is there nothing more than their surroundings? And then what about Stoneage people? They look up to the sky and see gods in them not planets. Are there really gods up there in that reality? I would find it much more interesting if their believe opens up a gateway into another reality and the planets are planets but not bereft of live, instead the gods live there and can access the world of their believers via gates. Meaning there are basic universal laws even if there are no living to boost axioms. One of those basics is that there are planets, but what lives on these planets is up to the reality and its axioms.

[Stormchild]

Another notion, I just realized. The Space Gods have two ways of interstellar travel. They travel in the Star Sphere and via stargate to earth. As earth was their first attempt for interdimensional travel and it was seen as a mistake, they didn't do it again. So, why did the Mohani develop reality tree technology in the first place?

An explanation would be that earth was the only interdimensional travel over a vast distance, while the other planets in the Star Sphere are either in the same solar system or in solar systems not so far away. So the Space Gods reasoned this was something totally different. In reality, it wasn't. The Mohani had already used reality trees to convert the realities of the planets they discovered, so the Space gods thought it was the same reality when they found those planets.

As the Space gods know what to do with reality trees, they need to have some experience with it. So, some monitors might know how to plant them from earlier experience (f.i. from the world of the Larendi). Meaning, the Space gods themselves planted reality trees on other worlds thus converting them to their reality, a move not made public and only known to a select few.

[Stormchild]

What bothers me most is that I like the overall feel of most of the Cosms thus far (excepting Takta Ker which seems to lack such) and i worry that filling the Cosms out properly might entail quite a bit of material that ultimately warps or or otherwise ruins the actual "feel" of the Cosms.
While we could argue for or against their "NEEDING" their "feel" warped/altered/ruined, my larger issue is could we really think up enough stuff that didn't do such things to the Cosms while adding to their overall presentation?

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you arguing against filling a cosm with (unexplored and unexplained) worlds or against filling a planet with too much information? For the latter, I do not advocate for filling it entirely (this is not even remotely possible) but to fill it to some extent with information. A benchmark for this is Talislanta 4th edition. Of course this is a huge tome, but it shows how it could be done.

Start with a map that features the big cities and the most noteable geografical sites. Explain them in the text and explain the people and how they live. This wasn't done for any cosm except Terra with its own sourcebook. The Aysle map is a joke. Even castle Ardinay isn't featured there, though it is mentioned in the text and its position on the continent of Aysle could be concluded from the text. I would love to have a map of Aysle that at least shows all sites featured in the text, but it certainly needs more. The text is incoherrent, if you feature one capital of a house, you need feature all. The borders of the houses need to be featured and the domain of each of the folk. World of Aden did this quite well.

[skeloric]

I am not sure if I understand you correctly. Are you arguing against filling a cosm with (unexplored and unexplained) worlds or against filling a planet with too much information?
Mostly, I was against filling it with the WRONG information.
And was counseling being very careful with each new added bit.

[skeloric]

I found a reference but the the reference i recalled.
Core book V1.0 version p82



COSM
A cosm is an entire universe which was,
at the time of its creation,
physically separate from every other cosm
(meaning there is no purely physical way to travel from cosm to cosm).
Most cosms are separated in other ways as well.
Most cosms have realities which are at least a little bit different from one another,
some are drastically different.


Firstly, the cosm's Axioms cover everything, even if you can't get there yet.
Secondly, the extent of the ENTIRETY of the reality is decided at the cosm's moment of creation.

I once tried to say that Takta Ker lacked directions and that its topography was in flux depending on the needs of the inhabitants (or at the dictates of their DIRECTION SENSE rolls at least) and this was a feature of a Tech 7 (pre-map) Cosm.
Kansas Jim set me straight on that, he said such would interfere with its ever attaining Tech 8.

The upshot, the Space Gods' universe has always been teeming with alien life on all of its planets across its universe even back when it was Social 1, Tech 1.
Every world pushing the Axioms, even and especially the Mohani which I believe were also from that same Cosm.
As to the Reality Trees, they were quite likely created hundreds of thousands of years ago when they first found Earth.
Until the trees were made, they likely were in danger of losing all of their technology to transformation to Core Earth Axioms.
(This may in fact be why there are so many medicinal plants to be found in the Amazon Rainforest, at least when we discuss Core Earth. They were left behind or transformed to our reality. Would make one wonder what they were capable of before they transformed to "our" Axioms.)

So if we take Magna Verita as an example...
Magna Verita has a Cosm that includes:
1 Earth -- flat.
1 Sun -- revolving around the Earth.
1 Moon -- going around the Earth.
Mars, Venus, (maybe) Mercury going around either Earth or the Sun.
1 spherical wall of stars some distance beyond Mars, enclosing all within.

On Magna Verita, Copernicus makes a telescope and looks up.
Copernicus sees quasi-Biblical truth made manifest.
Galileo confirms it later.
Technology stagnates at 15.

Magna Verita gets a tech boost to Axiom 26 and builds a starship.
It travels to the very WALL of their universe to determine what the stars truly are.
They find diamonds or an actual saint/angel sitting in a chair mounted on the wall or whatever.
The tech increase changed nothing.

Similarly, Core Earth builds a deep space probe and launches it.
It arrives at the "edge" of their reality as I postulate it and it slows to a stop, however the "wall" is more complex than that of Magna Verita and the probe continues to send back data as if it were still travelling throughout the universe.
When Core Earth builds its first starship capable of going beyond Pluto, they discover that they have stopped moving and that there is nowhere to go while the sensors continue offering data as if they were.
Contrariwise, the universe is huge and always was huge even when they had Tech 1 and they (as did the probe before them) travel out into a universe full of wonder but empty of life.

The mechanics make some sort of sense but its the kind that, personally, makes my head hurt and I pride myself on thinking of 6 impossible things before breakfast.

[skeloric]

As to belief dictating reality, belief may be how some Cosm could come into being but they would come into existence with what they will always be even if later advancement should have been able to disprove it, it instead confirms it.

[Kansas Jim]

But how do they travel between the planets in our solar system? Of course, they use living ships, but are these poss-rated or ords? It would be easiest for them to be poss-rated but how do the Space Gods make poss-rated ships? Another explanation would be that the poss-rated on board fill the ship with poss when it disonnects.
My assumption, which is just speculation as there's nothing in the sourcebook, is that lightships work like miniature reality trees or perhaps they contain a living reality tree which serves to keep the lightship functioning when they enter a reality which doesn't support their tech.

I can't remember this mention of Core Earth's Axioms covering its entire cosm and couldn't find it on a cursory glance now. Do you know where to find it?
Infiniverse newsletter #21, in response to the question "What is the extent of a cosm? Is it one planet, one galaxy or what?" WEG said that it includes everything in the universe, which for Core Earth means possibly billions of galaxies. In another issue of the newsletter I'm pretty sure they mentioned Core Earth reality being the only reality in its entire universe but at the moment I can't track down the issue number.

As far as I understand the reality mechanics, reality is formed by the living. What they believe to be true is true. But what if there are no living? Does this mean nothing is true as no one is there to believe something to be true?
Reality is shaped by the living but it is not completely defined by it. The axioms, for example, have no bearing on the unliving portion of a cosm, only on the living. And belief does not guarantee that something is true - plenty of people in ancient times believed the world was flat but observation and experimentation proved that it wasn't - belief by the living did not make it so.

We also have examples in the game material of cosms killed by the High Lords still being in existence, their unliving reality remains even though there is no longer any living portion of their reality.

And then what about Stoneage people? They look up to the sky and see gods in them not planets. Are there really gods up there in that reality? I would find it much more interesting if their believe opens up a gateway into another reality and the planets are planets but not bereft of live, instead the gods live there and can access the world of their believers via gates. Meaning there are basic universal laws even if there are no living to boost axioms. One of those basics is that there are planets, but what lives on these planets is up to the reality and its axioms.
If the axioms are high enough (Spirit 19 and/or Magic 15) then sure, it would be possible to access the realms of the gods and vice versa. If the belief was that they lived on the planets in the night sky then that could be where you end up. Magna Verita may be like that, Heaven is supposed to be on the other side of the crystal spheres that make up the boundary of the material world. If you could travel to MV's Heaven you might find yourself on the other side of that barrier looking up/down at MV Earth.

[Stormchild]

There we are again at the point I left the WEG forum (do I hear sounds of relief?). While I state the rules do not make much sense, at least they are over-complicated, let's make up our own rules that are more easy to understand and implement, everybody else on the forum said: but the gospel says so.

Somewhere in the gospel it is said this is my game to do what I want with as I play it with my friends. That is a rule I will always stick to. But if other players convince me that my conclusion for a problem is creating more problems than it solves, then I will use the printed rules or those other people come up with.

But I am sorry, up to now what you said did not convince me, you only stated that "somewhere in the WEG materials it is explained but not very comprehensive or consistently" (this is what I subsumize not a quotation). And to be honest the WEG explanation you gave makes my head spin.

[Stormchild]

Mostly, I was against filling it with the WRONG information.
And was counseling being very careful with each new added bit.

What is right and what is wrong in a fictional world? I am not sure if we are talking about the same things now, so let us be careful not to misunderstand each other. For me right is what makes a world interesting and unique, wrong is boring and copied. I won't go through the pletora of Torg material line by line to find any mention of let's say castle Ardinay. For my game, I pick a point on the map and say there it is and keep to it. I don't see the sourcebooks as gospel but as hints on how to play an interesting game. The more hints, the more interesting it can get, but if they leave out what I need or I just can't find it, I have to make it up.

[skeloric]

What is right and what is wrong in a fictional world? I am not sure if we are talking about the same things now, so let us be careful about misunderstanding each other. For me right is what makes a world interesting and unique, wrong is boring and copied.
Let's take Tharkold.
Tharkold is a Cosm of endless war and the word "peace" may in fact be lost to time.
it is a place where the psychology of violence is right in the World laws.
As those who have fought in wars can attest (as I have not), the word "hero" is as often synonymous with someone who died in defense of their nation as it is someone who achieved a major objective.
Tharkold is where there are a lot of dead soldiers but not many heroes.
Jasyn found the imagery of the brutality of Tharkold repugnant and thought that it should be blunted somewhat and offers a new Tharkold World law to make the the humans ("The Race") of Tharkold retain more of their 'humanity".
However this breaks the theme and mood of Tharkold, a Cosm that needs LESS confusion as to what it represents rather than more.
This is an example of where the new design work causes a jarring dissonance with already available info.

Or if, while adding some new bits to Aysle, I decided that i rather liked the intrinsically anti-magical nature of Dwarves as seen in old AD&D games and thus added a bit about Dwarves are intrinsically anti-magical.
Adding such DESPITE every bit of evidence that shows Dwarves using Magic in extant Aysle products.

These are moments where what has been added did not fit and diminished the product.
Its something to be aware of though as you do point out, such appraisals can be altogether too subjective.

[skeloric]

There we are again at the point I left the WEG forum (do I hear sounds of relief?). While I state the rules do not make much sense, at least they are over-complicated, let's make up our own rules that are more easy to understand and implement, everybody else on the forum said: but the gospel says so.

Somewhere in the gospel it is said this is my game to do what I want with as I play it with my friends. That is a rule I will always stick to. But if other players convince me that my conclusion for a problem is creating more problems than it solves, then I will use the printed rules or those other people come up with.

When designing for public consumption it is best to be congruent with the rules.
The further removed you are from the "Rules as Written" the less useful your efforts become to others.
However, if you are only making something for yourself, go hog wild and deviate from the setting and system as much as you desire and can convince the others to accept.



And to be honest the WEG explanation you gave makes my head spin.
And you think mine doesn't spin?
This game is almost more about extremely obscure philosophy and an ongoing discussion of the ultimate nature of reality than a Role Playing Game.

[Stormchild]

The spinning head is what I was ranting about all the time when I said the WEG forum was all about moot discussion.

Yes, I would advocate not to make dwarves non-magical, simply because there is so much evidence that they can use magic but also because I don't think it really improves the game, it just makes the dwarves more stereotypical.

I just advocated against seeing every bit of information as gospel. Of course, it wouldn't help the game renaming Uthorion to Sauron f.i. There are informations that are at the heart of the background and others that are rather arbitrary.

That cosms are divided by axioms and world laws is at the heart of the game but how far a cosm extents is not, as space has not played any role in the game or in the novels, especially when the information on that can only be gleened taking bits of evidence from different sources and trying to shape it into a theory model that rivals in complexity the theory of relativity. That is what was mostly discussed on the WEG forum, so much thought of clever people going into something really no one will need. Instead this collaberative effort could go into filling the holes the background has. F.i. how to make the dwarves more interesting without changing already existing uninterpretable information. My order to change something would be:

If the given information can be interpreted and the interpretation would be more interesting than I would advocate to interpret it rather than write something altogether new. My feeling on the subject of rewriting Torg is:

If no information is given, there is no hindrance to write something new.
If the information given is found only with great difficulty, there is no great problem changing it (this is what other roleplaying games simply call clarifying, though this word often is a blatant lie).
If the given information is creating so much fuss that it simply cannot stand, change it. WEG has done this on many occasions.


If information has to be changed, I would prefer to deliver this with an in-game explanation, f.i. Grim is a noteable dwarf in that he is one of the few dwarves ever to be invited to study magic on the mage island, while most dwarves shy away from magic and are seen to be practically non-magic. This is underlined by the fact that they are the only race not born with birth-magic. Scholars think this could have to do with dwarvish sacularism. They don't care for the gods, so the gods don't care for them.
Note, this is only an example of how to spin the given information to fit with what you intended, I don't mean to advocate non-magical dwarves.

[skeloric]

The heart of the matter is, until a new iteration of the Cosms is even offered or -- worst case scenario -- they ask fans what each setting needs to have "clarified"/added, we are mostly talking rubbish.
People will try to claim their distorted view of where the game needs to go as some sort of empirical fact that everyone else would simply see if they didn't have their shoved somewhere.
Other people will take offense and make some denigrating or combative reply and eventually this place looks like the worst of the WEG flame wars.

Granted, I still enjoy showing the direction my game would go and how I see things, but there are times when 18 years and the contempt that comes with familiarity has made most of us see as much of what we believe to be there as there truly is.

As you pointed out with the extent of the Cosm -- while the RULES say the Cosm covers the universe, in the Cosms that info has yet to be utilized excepting Star Sphere.
Personally, I like the idea of the entire universe sharing the Axioms.
That way if I ever decide to fuse Orrorsh and Space 1889 together, I could have Horrors in Etherspace.
What would a "Space 1889" Orrorsh find on Mars or Venus?
Personally, following the book will eventually allow me to find out.

[Stormchild]

As it is, Torg is an interesting game but nothing more. It can't compete with the ever-evolving RPG market. Each new game that hits the market is taking more and more potential interest away from this stone cold dead game. The few people that still take a first look into Torg soon realize that it lacks a lot especially in background. They will not even go that far to contemplate about the very complex reality theory.

This is why I advocate that we, the fans should try to generate background material. This, of course is not official, at least until Eric or a new owner decides to declare some parts of it to be official. That is what happened to some fan-created material in Shadowrun. If you look at dumbshock.com (I think this formerly was the famed Blackjack's corner) there is a lot of unofficial material and you will find a lot of it used at Cons. It is an evolutionary process. Why are we here at this forum if not to be part of this evolutionary process? There is no new WEG material and none is to be expected. The worst that can happen is that this is but a finger exercise. At least it can help improve your own campaigns (I keep my fingers crossed for you to find players) and show that there are still Torg fans out there.

[skeloric]

I had found players for a very short period of time.
We slogged through the game for close to 3 months until the group fell apart.
One thing that dismayed and horrified me was that I did not know the rules as well as i thought I did.
Indeed, my understanding of the rules was so skewed that I was quite glad to get off TORG and onto something else.
Instead, the group folded.
I can build Cosms just fine but I can't RUN the game.
If there was someone to run it, I'd happily play and maybe do well.
But as to RUN it, myself?
No freaking chance.

This thing is a juggernaut of complexity and I find myself wishing that they had recalled things like a proper index in all of the books and maybe a better early "simple version" with which to teach/learn the game.
And much better editing.

[Stormchild]

I know how you feel. That happens to me right now, too. I have been GMing Torg for years but used the Masterbook rules. When I bought R&E, I thought to give this a chance, as it is basically the original rule set. But now, I always tend to confuse MB rules, Shatterzone rules, original rules, house rules and those details changed in R&E. Because this is all so close together it is much easier to confuse than totally different rules. I never thought this could happen, but it does.

[The Game Guy]

CYBERPAPACY
I honestly think the cyberpsychosis rules to be antithetical to the premise, but that is about it.

I agree about Cyberpapacy. There are plenty of things you would need to update to bring it more up to date. It would be worth doing though, as Cyberpapacy is a good setting.

[skeloric]

If one's Cyberpapal faith adds were added to one's cyber value limit or something, it might help.
Piety enabling additional cyberware.

[Kansas Jim]

everybody else on the forum said: but the gospel says so.
Hey, you're the one who asked where in the game material it said something so I gave you an answer. If that gets under your skin, stop asking that kind of question.

[Stormchild]

Hey, you're the one who asked where in the game material it said something so I gave you an answer. If that gets under your skin, stop asking that kind of question.

No, it didn't get under my skin. Sorry if it resonated different than I meant it to be. I always try to make clear that I don't want to sound rude, and I am certainly not feeling hurt (or are easily hurt) and no one has said anything that could have made me feel hurt. Thank you for the answer you gave of course. Looks as if what I say came around different than what I meant. So I start from the beginning to show what my intentions were


The biggest problem of Torg when thinking about new settings are the constraints put on the setting by placing the cosms on one planet. I think the explanation in Space Gods is crap - here we have a cosm of many planets while everywhere else the cosm is only one planet, but if Core Earth would expand to the stars, any new world would become part of the cosm. Sounds like a cheap circumvention around the problem that needn't be there. Why not define a cosm as the whole universe it is located in? In Fantasy and mythology this means the stars are the worlds where the gods live, while in SF this means there is lots of space to be explored.

In hindsight my wording was wrong which led to this misunderstandig. I should have said: "If you want to create setting with other planets in the cosm, the biggest problem are the constraints by the reality mechanics. As long as a cosm has not the axioms to allow for space travel, there are no other planets in this cosm." And I offered an easy way out of this problem. The answers to that I understood to be: gleaned from different pieces of information scattered all around in the Torg books a cosm without space travel is just one world and this shouldn't be changed.

Then we talked a lot about the question if something should be changed at all and do we have the power to do? And I tried to say (I don't know if I made that clearly enough) that we have this power in our own games and can discuss about changes for the game. If the answers are good other players might use them too and though still not official it could at least become semi-official and maybe Eric or a new owner might use it in a new version of Torg.

Then I was ranting a lot about why I am here. Maybe this was the reason you think it might have gone under my skin. Instead I only wanted to state that I am in this forum (and was in WEG forum and the newsletter earlier) to discuss about how to improve the games I love so much. When this develops into a discussion about how to interpret the rules, I am out, as I am not interested in that and have lots of more important things to do. But that doesn't mean I am feeling insulted, it just means I have lost interest.

For me, the discussion about what is space in Torg, is not about rules but about background (though it is on the brink of rules). Rules are meant to give players and GM a means to mirror "reality" (in lieu of a better word. Of course, rules how to fire a plasma weapon mirror a fictional reality as seen in SF-movies). Everybody has a feeling of how this should work and people can differ on that in the first place. Then the rules should be easy to understand, and this means different things for different people too. Then, rules should be fast too. If someone comes along with a rule that manages these problems better than another, I use it in my game. But this is not what the game is about.

The background is the game. I can play any background with any set of rules (some work better than others of course) and many game groups do just that. This is why I want to improve the background as it (in my opinion) lacks a lot but has great merits. I want to strengthen the strengths Torg has. I would also be part of a rules discussion if I had the feeling it is heading into the direction of streamlining the rules. F.i. there is a lot of work to be done to make the magic system easier to understand. In the published material nearly every spell comes with its own special rules. Shadowrun had the same problem and they streamlined their magic system in the 4th edition.

And, of course, I hope I haven't hurt any feelings with anything I said. I am not going for easy apologies, but english is not my native tongue and some of the finer subtext might get lost to me.

[skeloric]

For me, the idea of "fixing" TORG is moot.
Either TORG is a permanently dead game in which my energies are probably better devoted elsewhere OR there will be a new edition that will update the game with everything that it missed out on or was weak on and I won't have to do much more than tweak the resulting new version.
Either way, delving deeply into the system isn't much fun for me.
I am, though, engaging in a long term attempt to create my own Axiom charts while retaining the current placements.
A process that I have been involved in since about 2005.

[The Game Guy]

For me, the idea of "fixing" TORG is moot.
Either TORG is a permanently dead game in which my energies are probably better devoted elsewhere OR there will be a new edition that will update the game with everything that it missed out on or was weak on and I won't have to do much more than tweak the resulting new version.
Either way, delving deeply into the system isn't much fun for me.
I am, though, engaging in a long term attempt to create my own Axiom charts while retaining the current placements.
A process that I have been involved in since about 2005.

I will say that TORG isn't dead, but I know some things after talking to Eric but I am not going to say anything, as I am not sure what I can and cannot repeat.

[skeloric]

I will say that TORG isn't dead, but I know some things after talking to Eric but I am not going to say anything, as I am not sure what I can and cannot repeat.
If Eric isn't releasing any press releases, I'd say it safer to consider what you've heard as something said in confidence out of trust.
Best not to betray that trust, despite my fervent wish to hear all about it.

[The Game Guy]

If Eric isn't releasing any press releases, I'd say it safer to consider what you've heard as something said in confidence out of trust.
Best not to betray that trust, despite my fervent wish to hear all about it.

I agree. If he wants you to hear it he can tell you himself. As you said, I wouldn't want to betray his trust. I want to hear what he has to say and he has a lot of good insights, some from lessons learned along the way.

[Kansas Jim]

[I got a bit snippy]

No, it didn't get under my skin. Sorry if it resonated different than I meant it to be. I always try to make clear that I don't want to sound rude, and I am certainly not feeling hurt (or are easily hurt) and no one has said anything that could have made me feel hurt. Thank you for the answer you gave of course. Looks as if what I say came around different than what I meant.
That's okay, I'm the one who was obviously letting something get under his skin. Work has been more stressful than usual lately, eating up all my time, and it's put me a bit on edge. Sorry for getting bitchy. Until things slow down at work (and man, I really hope they do) I may have to put off making any posts until the weekends when I'm not feeling quite as much pressure.


In hindsight my wording was wrong which led to this misunderstandig. I should have said: "If you want to create setting with other planets in the cosm, the biggest problem are the constraints by the reality mechanics. As long as a cosm has not the axioms to allow for space travel, there are no other planets in this cosm." And I offered an easy way out of this problem. The answers to that I understood to be: gleaned from different pieces of information scattered all around in the Torg books a cosm without space travel is just one world and this shouldn't be changed.
Well, my response was to say that your understanding of the published material is incorrect, a cosm without space travel can still be more than one world. Terra is a perfect example, both Terra and Mars in that cosm were inhabited for a very long time before the axioms allowed for space travel. The Star Sphere would count too, the cosm contained the worlds of the Akashans, Larendi, Draygaaks and whatnot when the Mohani first arrived to pultaak the cosm, long before the Star Sphere itself possessed the axioms for space travel.

[Stormchild]

I am at a loss of understanding now. What is space then in a cosm without space travel? Do other planets exist or do they exist only in some cosms? Or do they exist in potential and will come into existence when space travel becomes possible due to an axiom improvement?

[Kansas Jim]

I am at a loss of understanding now. What is space then in a cosm without space travel? Do other planets exist or do they exist only in some cosms? Or do they exist in potential and will come into existence when space travel becomes possible due to an axiom improvement?
Space in a cosm without space travel is the same thing it is in a cosm with space travel. Reality does not physically alter when axioms change. If a cosm has multiple planets in it those planets exist regardless of whether or not there's life in the cosm that can travel between them.

[Stormchild]

So, Aysle could never develop space travel as there are no planets? In Magna Verita, limited space travel is now possible but there are no planets to travel to?

[skeloric]

So, Aysle could never develop space travel as there are no planets? In Magna Verita, limited space travel is now possible but there are no planets to travel to?
Yep, that is exactly it.

[skeloric]

If the Cosm was designed to support an Axiom to its fullest, the Axiom probably will eventually rise that far.
Core Earth, Terra, Marketplace, and Tharkold all fit that profile in regards to raising Tech to encompass interstellar space travel.

However, Magna Verita is a special case.
It was artificially bumped up from Tech 15 to Tech 26 in the trilogy.
The Cosm itself was never quite designed to utilize everything that Tech 26 allows, a point which has to be glaringly obvious to those arriving from outside.
Maybe even to some natives.
This makes Magna Verita an interesting case study within the framework of the TORG setting.

[Stormchild]

Am I the only one to see a problem in that?

[skeloric]

Am I the only one to see a problem in that?
Maybe you should lay the problem you see out in detail once again.
As I see it:
Magna Verita was to be a glaring dissonance between "Christian Mythology" and cyberpunk level technology.
Eric "Hellsreach" Gibson once acknowledged a preference for the "original" Tech 15 Magna Verita, a point I sometimes agree with.
The "Dark Medieval" aspect of Magna Verita does require more attention and removing the cyberpunk influence would assist in that.
And with Magna Verita thus reduced to the original Axiom, the "problem", as I so far understand it, would not exist.
But i also find it interesting to attempt to reconcile a Cosm wholly designed by Medieval ignorance alongside the advancements of cyberpunk technology, knowing FULL WELL that there is NO reconciliation.
The dissonance exists and will continue to do so -- that is actually part of the intent of the setting.

[Kansas Jim]

So, Aysle could never develop space travel as there are no planets? In Magna Verita, limited space travel is now possible but there are no planets to travel to?
The Ayslish could develop the ability to travel to the Limit (the physical boundary of their cosm), that might count as space travel if the air thins out into a vacuum before reaching the Limit. But in terms of traveling to other celestial bodies, no, they cannot develop that because there are no other bodies to travel to.

The description of Magna Verita in the Cyberpapacy SB does mention the other planets:

"Magna Verita lies at the center of its universe. Orbiting it are the celestial spheres of the sun, moon and planets. Set there by God during the Creation they continue in their preordained paths until the Day of Judgement." (p8)

but it's unclear if travel is possible to the planets. Does the atmosphere reach all the way up to the lowest crystal sphere, the one the moon is embedded in? If so, it might be possible to fly to the moon in an aircraft instead of needing a spaceship! As for the sun and the planets, is there any way through the moon's crystal sphere? If so, then it might be possible to travel to them as well. Are they inhabited? Some historical versions of this celestial model put various types of angels living on the different planets. Others treated them as just points of light in the sky. There's a cool book called Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle that is set in a world where the crystal sphere model of the universe is real. I've often thought about modeling Magna Verita's universe on how things are described as working in that book.

[skeloric]

The description of Magna Verita in the Cyberpapacy SB does mention the other planets:
"Magna Verita lies at the center of its universe. Orbiting it are the celestial spheres of the sun, moon and planets. Set there by God during the Creation they continue in their preordained paths until the Day of Judgement." (p8)

Crap.
I forgot about that.
So the entire "solar system" (it isn't truly a "solar system" as the sun is not at the center but an alternative escapes me) exist here except maybe Pluto as that was not part of the Medieval model... or is it there?
It could be there even if Tech 15 technology could not discover it.



But it's unclear if travel is possible to the planets. Does the atmosphere reach all the way up to the lowest crystal sphere, the one the moon is embedded in? If so, it might be possible to fly to the moon in an aircraft instead of needing a spaceship! As for the sun and the planets, is there any way through the moon's crystal sphere? If so, then it might be possible to travel to them as well.

And we still run into incomplete info.
But the issue of "crystal spheres" is something I was not prepared for, though its probably in the same way that I forgot that the rest of the planets are represented.



Are they inhabited? Some historical versions of this celestial model put various types of angels living on the different planets.

Angels might require more than Spirit 14, but the rest of the question is worrisome.
Since one Faith is real and all others false due to World Law -- "The Law of the One True God" -- does that make them some truer representation of Magna Verita Christianity that can be found on Magna Verita itself?
If yes, then they are a bigger threat to Malraux than anything else one could offer.
The shape of those Planets, would they also be flat with one of the planes facing inward towards Magna Verita?



Others treated them as just points of light in the sky.

Might be safer, but it lacks all of the conflict that the other could present.


There's a cool book called Celestial Matters by Richard Garfinkle that is set in a world where the crystal sphere model of the universe is real. I've often thought about modeling Magna Verita's universe on how things are described as working in that book.
And now we have a book to seek out.

[Stormchild]

All those questions raised after my question are part of what I meant. First of, I used a wrong wording before that made what I wanted to say unclear. When I said the world is just what people believe it to be, I should have said the world view of the people shapes their world.

World view changes with understanding of the world. The reality is explainded in WEG material based upon the world view fitting to the setting (flat world in medieval setting, the sky is a limit in a fantasy setting) and I understood that reality fits to this world view but is able to change when world view changes. You state now that world view is always correct, the shape of the world doesn't change even if world view changes. So a flat world stays a flat world even when the tech axiom advances to a point where this scientifically cannot be true.l

As I understood (and you conviced me that I uderstood it wrongly) the world view shapes the world. But if world view doesn't shape the world, instead the world is always the same, then what happens when people in a world without planets arrive at an axiom that allows for space travel? Is this simply the end of their axiom evolvement or will they find a way to implement further knowledge without the additional insight space travel grants?

Just think about what tech we just would not have discovered if we had not traveled into space. What happens when someone from a cosm with space travel travels to a world without? Will he even be able to reach it via space travel?

I offered the solution that, despite the world view, the solar system of each cosm is the extent of the realm and only planets with life generate a conflicting reality. While planets without life work just like mixed zones for visitors from other cosms. Planets could also be inhabited by angels, gods, martians or other beings as befits the world view of the planet that basically is the nexus of the reality.

I think my interpretation is easier to implement and understand than what I read here as interpretations of the rules (though your interpretations seem to me to be more founded in the WEG material than mine, they are still interpretations gleened from scattered information).



Captain we have a problem. There is a guy in a golden chariot chasing our ship and he throws laser bolts at us with his bare hands.

[skeloric]

I also erroneously believed that TORG operated on a "Paradigmatic Reality", a reality that evolves and shifts to fit the collective Paradigm.
Such was true of Mage the Ascension and can be seen in Nobilis and some other "high concept" RPGs but was never quite true for TORG.
Shifting Axioms could be seen as a subset of Paradigmatic Reality.
Note that the definition of Paradigm in this instance is a relatively rare one, "the generally accepted perspective of a particular discipline at a given time", and is applied to the perspective of the composite beliefs of the entire human species.
Therefore "Paradigmatic" in this case reflects those hypothetical changeable qualities inherent in perspective.
Paradigmatic Reality is truly too much to ask TORG to try to do -- it would be mass confusion as Paradigmatic Reality is simply too extreme for us to even try to make some sort of sense about.
People that already exist in seemingly sufficient quantities could alter the very shape of the Earth. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society)
While one COULD posit a singular Cosm which operates by Paradigmatic Reality, the first thing such a Cosm would do upon becoming aware of the nature of the reality invading would be to have large portions of its un-invaded reality FLIP to the invader's Axioms/World Laws.
Messy and difficult.

There IS a workable model that mimics Paradigmatic Reality, which is known as "Parasitic Reality" and has been asserted with a variant of Orrorsh which "infects" the invaded reality, creating a globular invasion territory rather than the more stable triangular bounded zones.
However, this model maps only the World Laws of Orrorsh over the Axioms and World Laws of any other Cosm creating a "horror hybrid".

Another location of Paradigmatic Reality in TORG is the title of TORG itself and the singular power it grants to remodel the Cosm to the High Lord's liking without the time and effort that is required to push up (or down) Axioms as well as alter the (or craft new) World Laws.
The only safety valve here is that the power rests in a single individual and that individual so far has been an NPC.
Even more importantly, it has remained a potential outcome but has yet to be applied in any game book.

[Stormchild]

I am not sure if you understood what I was proposing. I did not propose a paradigmatic reality (though I like the word it sounds very scientifical giving RPG an air of seriousness). I proposed a fixed base reality where the planets and their cycle is a fixature while other physical laws are up to the relative reality.

Reality can change over time not only with the help of a Darkness Device. In order to change the reality, you need an explanation for observed or theorized laws of physic (or magic or gods). The new laws (axioms) have not only to be proven by a small group of scientists (or magicians or priests) but accepted by the population as a whole. Which of course, is tending towards paradigmatic reality, but this is how axiomatic shifts are explained in Torg (or did I understand this part wrong too?).

When Highlords use their Darkness Device for a forced axiom shift they have to envision the new reality they are aspiring. The normal way is to shift one axiom point which doesn't change the explanations needed for laws of physics too much, but still there are some explanations to do.

There is only one example of a massive axiom shift: when Magna Verita reality changed into the cyberpapacy. But Ebunacrux had a rolemodel to use, the chip of Kadandra. There, every explanation how the laws of physics work in this reality are given. At least this is my explanation of what happened. If the world was fixed based upon the axioms we saw in Magna Verita prior to the axiom shift, this new world just wouldn't work.

When the first shuttle goes into orbit it will observe that the sun is cycling around the earth which does at least topple all theories about gravitation. The scientific models for Tech 26 need explanations. With a gradious axiom shift it may be possible to explain new observations with old thinking (f.i. electricity are very small faeries that interact magically) but with a shift that massively, you need theories and scientific models. A theory or model is disproven when you observe something that doesn't work with them. Then you need a new theory or model. If you don't have a theory why something works, you can copy existing tech but can make no new discoveries.

This would also make an interesting twist. Hachi-Mara doomed Magna Verita to stagnation in handing the chip to Malraux. But it opens too many cans of worms at once. My proposition is that the stars and planets are part of a base reality that can't be changed. But every reality can be superimposed. A reality where people are able to observe that planets are different to their world view will be explained differently. F.i. when an Ayslish divination mage sees in his scrying glass that there are other planets around the planet Aysle, he will discover that Aysle is a hollow planet wher the Limit is the planet hull.

[skeloric]

Axioms by their nature are meant to be transitory.
They move and shift naturally.
However, Axioms do not dictate the ultimate nature of reality, only how we interact with it.
While Aysle may have always been at least Magic Axiom 10 and more likely to have always held the current Magic Axiom of 18, Core Earth's Social and Tech Axioms have proven that Axioms are meant to shift in the TORG system.
Tharkold mentions how the Magical Axiom collapsed and the current practices of its High Lord is to invade merely to gain enough PE to infuse the Magic Axiom enough to keep it from falling even further.

This points to an as yet unexplored series of elements:
That Axioms require PE to increase even when increasing naturally.
That Axioms require a certain (varying) amount of PE just to maintain their current positions.
That there are Axioms in certain Cosms that eventually reach a prohibitive cost required to increase or even to maintain current values.
While this digression may not be immediately useful, it could in fact add a new wrinkle to the game and is even already inferred by multiple sources in the rules and setting.
Imagine, Magna Verita may require a pittance in PE to maintain their current Tech Axiom but to increase it may require ruinous expenditures of PE, indicating that Magna Verita's Tech Axiom has reached an effective upper threshold beyond which it cannot progress.
But even so, Axioms and World laws are mutable.
Uthorion added a new World Law allowing Corruption to hide in the land and freeing corrupt/evil beings to continue without fear of physical proof of their nature.
Thus, where the nature of reality should quite likely hinder the increase of an Axiom as in the case of the Tech Axioms of Aysle or Magna Verita, pushing that Axiom by an artificial means will eventually result in a reality whose technical and scientific knowledge actually exceeds its potential capacity.
In such, you are quite right.
Stagnation is quite likely.
Magna Verita is unlikely to ever see an increase to Tech 27.
It has no need for such an improvement and it quite likely lacks even the ability.
In truth as the book cites, Magna Verita's use of the Tech 26 is predominantly limited to in realm in Core Earth, the home Cosm is more "Tech 15/26" in which it operates as if it were Tech 15 but could utilize without contradiction technology up to and including Tech 26.
Without discovering and applying the intervening Tech increases for itself, it is more likely to see the improvements beyond Tech 15 as something to be taken "on faith" rather than explored in a laboratory setting.
In a Cosm where all truths are settled at the pulpit rather than by earnest exploration, they are likely to preach the advancements of Tech 26 as a "miracle of God" rather than the technological and scientific breakthrough it truly represents.
In the end, Dr. Hatchi did do no favors for Magna Verita.
It was a ploy designed to create a setback as you seemingly also surmise and it kept Malraux busy for several years of the war.

[Stormchild]

To be honest, it was a crappy way to get to the end of creating the Cyberpapacy. I remember when I read the novels I asked myself why Djil thought this would be bad for Malraux.

This was never explained in the novels and WEG later often tried to find a reason for what initially was a bad way to introduce an interesting cosm via story. In War's End they tried to give the ultimate explanation in that this drives Malraux insane and reveals his insanity to his followers. A crappy patch to a crappy idea.

Other ways WEG tried to reason why this was really no boon but doom were an AI that lurks somewhere in the godnet (an idea soon forgotten), resenting clerics that fled to Magna Verita and garnered followers there (lurked for a while in the Infiniverse newsletter and was then practically forgotten), lower tech that the Cyberpapacy did not understand (Nato forces using am radio) are what comes to my mind at a glance. But none of those ideas were really followed.

[skeloric]

To be honest, I think they looked at what they wanted to achieve -- an oppressive, reactionary, Medieval mind-set that is connected to cyberpunk technology -- and just did not see how to get there by any other route except by an unwilling arrival to such a moment.
A "Medieval mindset" is hard to preserve into anything resembling the "modern age".
Making it able to survive until such a moment as the cybernetic revolution?
It certainly would not except in some lunatic fringe easily ignored or even expunged.

[Stormchild]

This is exactly what I wanted to say. You know, there are times when I feel my grapse of english is not good enough for Torg.

The approach was crappy to meet an end that is interesting. So we should not base our understanding of the reality mechanics on some bad approach to meet an end an author of a novel chose.

Instead of using Hachi-Mara to bring upon the Cyberpapacy without any real explanation why this would be a good move, the authors could have used another approach.

One scenario that comes to my mind is this: Thratchen put a spell onto Mara's cyberhand. When the Knights confront the high Lords, Mara's Hand slashes out all of its own (directed by Thratchen that is) against Malraux. The spell triggers, takes Mara's spirit out of her body and places it into Malraux. Malraux is unable to drive her out but she is unable to gain the upper hand. The darkness device learns from her and triggers the axiom wash. Her spirit is copied into the god net, so she always will lurk in Malraux' backyard and can orchestrate rebellion against the cyberpope from hiding. In addition the cyberpope is having fits of insanity, when Mara's spirit gains the upper hand for a short period.

[skeloric]

This is exactly what I wanted to say. You know, there are times when I feel my grapse of english is not good enough for Torg.
Even as an English-speaking native, I sometimes wonder if MY English is good enough for TORG.

[Kansas Jim]

So the entire "solar system" (it isn't truly a "solar system" as the sun is not at the center but an alternative escapes me) exist here except maybe Pluto as that was not part of the Medieval model... or is it there?
The medieval models only include the planets known at that time, which were Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. (And the sun and moon which were counted as orbiting the Earth as well.)

The shape of those Planets, would they also be flat with one of the planes facing inward towards Magna Verita?
Probably. I'd guess that if there were any life on them they would be on whichever side faced the sun, so if it were closer to the Earth than the sun (such as the Moon) life would be on the side facing away from Earth. If the planet were farther out, then life would be on the side facing the Earth and the sun.

[Kansas Jim]

As I understood (and you conviced me that I uderstood it wrongly) the world view shapes the world. But if world view doesn't shape the world, instead the world is always the same, then what happens when people in a world without planets arrive at an axiom that allows for space travel? Is this simply the end of their axiom evolvement or will they find a way to implement further knowledge without the additional insight space travel grants?
I'm sure they would find alternate paths of technological development that don't rely on spaceflight the way it did for us. Wars for example help push along technological developments, I think the Tharkold sourcebook even mentions that in relation to their Tech axiom.

What happens when someone from a cosm with space travel travels to a world without? Will he even be able to reach it via space travel? When you say without space travel, do you mean without the axiom for it, or do you mean an otherwise technologically advanced one which simply hasn't developed space travel? Tharkold is an example of the latter, according to the sourcebook neither the Tharkoldu nor the Race have developed space travel, they can reach low orbit and that's all.

[Kansas Jim]

I remember when I read the novels I asked myself why Djil thought this would be bad for Malraux.
I'm not sure if it was in Infiniverse or elsewhere but WEG explained the rationale behind it was that learning to adapt to the Tech Surge would stop the expansion of the realm for a few years and give Core Earth's defenders more time to come together against the High Lords. Aysle and Orrorsh were similarly hobbled for a few years by early events in the campaign history. The combined hobbling of Aysle and the Cyberpapacy allowed Europe to remain free and put in place defenses which hindered expansion of those two realms when they did finally start attempting it.

[Stormchild]

When you say without space travel, do you mean without the axiom for it, or do you mean an otherwise technologically advanced one which simply hasn't developed space travel? Tharkold is an example of the latter, according to the sourcebook neither the Tharkoldu nor the Race have developed space travel, they can reach low orbit and that's all.

I mean any means of travelling to another planet or into space. Be it by tech, magic, spirit or social (how ever this may be)

[skeloric]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Spirit won't quite allow space travel as much as it will eventually allow access to Spiritually strong locations and eventually Paradise however the Cosm perceives it.

Social is conceiving of and communicating certain "constructs of connection" as in forging a tribe or a nation as well as some other potential exchanges of ideas, expansion of the varieties of conflict resolution, overall complexity of interpersonal entanglements, etc. rather than travel...
Though you may be ascribing the hypothetical travel to "Psionic Travel" which as of yet is closely connected to the Social Axiom.

Magic is a good alternative and the inhabitants of a magical universe could implement some form of "spelljammer technology" in order to craft massive magical starships which employ powerful spells to assist in flight between worlds as seen in the actual "Spelljammer" setting once offered by TSR back before they were bought up by WotC.

However, all such is decided on a Cosm by Cosm basis.
If a Cosm limits outer space, the limit is there even if the Axioms would allow use of it.
However, a Cosm can OFFER an expansive outer space that has yet to be utilized due to insufficient Axioms to achieve such, all in some unspecified "preparation" for the day when the inhabitants are finally capable.

A Tech 30 Cosm can exist without an "outer space" and a Tech 10 Cosm could have one that rivals our own or even perhaps the Star Sphere.

[Catstacker]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Spirit won't quite allow space travel as much as it will eventually allow access to Spiritually strong locations and eventually Paradise however the Cosm perceives it.

Get off that limb, Skeletor, I'm a man with a chainsaw!

A common shamanic practice around the world is for the shaman to leave his body and travel to other places. Some have claimed to visit the moon, or other planets. So, it should be possible at a Spirit axiom of 9. Blame the designers who were stuck in their monotheistic traditions for failing to include the relevant ritual in the rulebook.

Those Judaeo-Christian-Islamic traditions are also making you assume that there is a Paradise to have access to. Most religions don't have one. Torg's designers stuck "Paradise" in quotes on the axiom chart, possibly because they couldn't agree what it was. My vote is for in a hot tub with a cold beer!

[skeloric]

Get off that limb, Skeletor, I'm a man with a chainsaw!

A common shamanic practice around the world is for the shaman to leave his body and travel to other places. Some have claimed to visit the moon, or other planets. So, it should be possible at a Spirit axiom of 9. Blame the designers who were stuck in their monotheistic traditions for failing to include the relevant ritual in the rulebook.

Those Judaeo-Christian-Islamic traditions are also making you assume that there is a Paradise to have access to. Most religions don't have one. Torg's designers stuck "Paradise" in quotes on the axiom chart, possibly because they couldn't agree what it was. My vote is for in a hot tub with a cold beer!
Skeletor?
That hack?
I assure you, as a 9 million year old D&D 900th level Wizard(Lich)/700th level Rogue that I am worth a million Skeletors.
If you don't believe me, just check out my million mile tall nuclear golem that causes 100 levels of drain every round to a radius of one entire universe.
My artifact Ring of Rewrite Reality and my Ring of Protection +100 should pretty much clear up any confusion between myself and that no talent hack Skeletor.



Aside from your gaffe, you make an excellent point.
Not every religion has a "paradise".
However...
Asgard and Mount Olympus both count.
The Aboriginal Dreamtime counts. (But only if physically entering it... Otherwise a "psychic voyage" is a miracle enhancing the Psychic Axiom.)
While Nirvana qualifies more as a state of being, it is a "paradisaical" state which could require such an Axiom as well.
The journey of Orpheus into the Underworld also represents a journey to a location significant enough to qualify as a "technical" paradise, although it truly is not.
Holy Mountains also qualify if for instance it is the mountain of the Al-I-Batin (Mage the Ascension: Sorcerer's Crusade) or similar, where the landmark is not a physical place one can journey to.
If there is any question as to the existence of the place outside of the texts of the faith in question, it may require that specific Axiom level to reach it.
"Paradise" was an unfortunate shorthand designation for locations (and perhaps states of being) only available to the devout when the spiritual energies are actually strong enough to support such access.

[Boojie]

LMAO!!!!!!!!! (Falls off chair)

That has got to be the most amusing post I have seen yet! And then you came back with the whole nuclear golem and called Skeletor a hack! LOL!!

Your awesome Skeloric!

[zack zenobi]

To be honest, it was a crappy way to get to the end of creating the Cyberpapacy. I remember when I read the novels I asked myself why Djil thought this would be bad for Malraux.

This was never explained in the novels and WEG later often tried to find a reason for what initially was a bad way to introduce an interesting cosm via story. In War's End they tried to give the ultimate explanation in that this drives Malraux insane and reveals his insanity to his followers. A crappy patch to a crappy idea.

Other ways WEG tried to reason why this was really no boon but doom were an AI that lurks somewhere in the godnet (an idea soon forgotten), resenting clerics that fled to Magna Verita and garnered followers there (lurked for a while in the Infiniverse newsletter and was then practically forgotten), lower tech that the Cyberpapacy did not understand (Nato forces using am radio) are what comes to my mind at a glance. But none of those ideas were really followed.

Djil probably thought it was bad for Malraux, because quite simply, it was. Please remember that the greatest power that the Dark Papacy had was Information. The Church was composed of the only people who could read. The tech surge did what the Gutenberg Press did, but did it at a ridiculously accelerated rate. Now not only could people read but use the Godnet as a way to meet discreetly. The exchange of ideas could happen at a much quicker rate, not only helping the resistance, but also fostering Atheism and other Religions.

[Stormchild]

Djil probably thought it was bad for Malraux, because quite simply, it was. Please remember that the greatest power that the Dark Papacy had was Information. The Church was composed of the only people who could read. The tech surge did what the Gutenberg Press did, but did it at a ridiculously accelerated rate. Now not only could people read but use the Godnet as a way to meet discreetly. The exchange of ideas could happen at a much quicker rate, not only helping the resistance, but also fostering Atheism and other Religions.

Giving the CP the means to control any conversation on the GodNet and even find heretics in an instant. Just think about what china is doing with a much lower-tech Internet. Also it gave the CP the means to suppress renegades with the sheer power of high tech weapons. You don't need many soldiers when you have access to those weapons and the access is controlled by the CP (though some slip through to the resistance). Not to forget homers in Cyberware and faith chips. Of course, the way how to control the masses has changed from the dark ages, but it is an iron grip nontheless.

[skeloric]

To be honest, it was a crappy way to get to the end of creating the Cyberpapacy. I remember when I read the novels I asked myself why Djil thought this would be bad for Malraux.

This was never explained in the novels and WEG later often tried to find a reason for what initially was a bad way to introduce an interesting cosm via story. In War's End they tried to give the ultimate explanation in that this drives Malraux insane and reveals his insanity to his followers. A crappy patch to a crappy idea.

Other ways WEG tried to reason why this was really no boon but doom were an AI that lurks somewhere in the godnet (an idea soon forgotten), resenting clerics that fled to Magna Verita and garnered followers there (lurked for a while in the Infiniverse newsletter and was then practically forgotten), lower tech that the Cyberpapacy did not understand (Nato forces using am radio) are what comes to my mind at a glance. But none of those ideas were really followed.

I did take a stab at covering this in another thread. (http://www.wegfanforums.com/forums//showthread.php?t=28&page=2)
I'll quote the bit here as well:


In the beginning of the High Lord's Guide we received a wonderful writeup about "High Lord Points" which could be used to advance the story in a group by group basis.
I always figured that the different Axioms had a different cost to increase or decrease.
Tharkold for instance maybe could push up its Tech Axiom with 20 HL points, but the Magic Axiom required more like 100 HL points to increase and had a habit of falling by a point if at least 50 HL points weren't spent at some regular basis just as maintenance.
Maybe Core Earth has a much easier time with Tech Axiom (followed by Social Axiom) than it does with increasing its Magic and Spirit -- or would if it had a High Lord utilizing HL points.

All of which could be further influenced by the quantity and quality of its Possibility Energy.
Take this all a step further, what if a HL is expending energy to achieve (or maintain) an Axiom that the Cosm can't truly support?
Cyberpapacy may in fact be essentially unstable when quantified in this manner.
Its increase to Tech 26 from Tech 15 is artificial, massive amounts of Poss Energy was used to push it up farther and faster than even the rules declare is possible.
But... I'll add a few suppositionistic wrinkles:
#1 Dr. Hatchi's data-chip had in fact become a minor Eternity Shard due to her diligence in crafting it (let's not get into just how unlikely that is) with an innate power to force an increase in the Tech Axiom by means of a very specialized limited Reality Storm.
Dr Hatchi is the Bearer and Jdil bought into it so as to assist in invoking its special power.
#2 Djilangulyip crossed it over into the Dreamtime and allowed it to somehow generate even more power, through his connection to it. (Probably an extended Power Push via his Spirit/Faith Adds, however that worked).

Which means that it was powerful enough to essentially "Reality Storm" a High Lord like Malraux into a partially new Reality by only altering his Tech Axiom by its "Tech Surge" power.
With enough Poss Energy left over to finally expend itself re-infusing him with PE (if it even caused him to lose any instead of sidestepping them entirely) and sending the excess to Ebenuscrux with which the Tech Axiom could be forced up throughout the realm AND Cosm -- that is a lot of energy to do something that Magna Verita would never have achieved on its own (nor would have attempted).
But yet the Tech Axiom is probably so prohibitively expensive to increase beyond 15 that it probably demands a prohibitive "maintenance cost" just to to keep it from falling back to 25 on its way back to 15.
Which means that Malraux and Ebenuscrux is "wasting" exorbitant amounts of HL Points to retain the increase now that it has had it.
Suddenly, the question of what was achieved is answered -- Cyberpapacy is in fact a power sink.
They must be expending more than they can hope to ever gain from a conquest -- or at the very least, they are using up almost all their HL Points just in maintenance making expansion very difficult but also vital.
Suddenly the invasion of Quebec makes sense, they could not even choose NOT to expand -- they needed the HL Points just to keep from succumbing to a deficit in HL Points and losing the Cyber.
Thus the whole "Cyberpapacy" makes sense on another level in that it no longer can utilize all of its energy to the invasion -- which weakens it considerably.
Additionally, it has probably reduced the Cosm from Dwindling (where all the invaders are at) to PLUMMETING, at least for a short while before rebounding.
In the greater scheme of things, it wasn't enough to affect PE usage in the game -- at least as far as was ever mentioned -- but it does make for added anxiety for Malraux who realizes that he MUST succeed in taking all of the PE because he loses much more than the rest if he takes less, because he is truly running "in the red" and there simply won't be time enough to switch to invading some other Cosm before he runs out.
Almost feel sorry for the guy in that envisioning of his situation.

That is the best example I can give for how an "invisible" (not truly released beyond WEG offices, extrapolated by inference) mechanic might have been at play in the Cyberpapacy.
I can't KNOW that is what was going on, but that is the answer I offer (and use personally).

[Boojie]

I remember reading that Skel. It made alot of sense to me.

[Stormchild]

Thank you Skel for subsuming the discussion. As I said in the other thread, this is the best explanation so far for a not too clever story-twist in the original background story.