Are all cynics actually romantics at heart? TORG dreams...

[skeloric]

One thing I had always might come to pass wasn't that ALL RPGs would use TORG's system exclusively (which is far different than WotC's dreams for D&D and D20) but rather the companies would release AN edition that used TORG system.
So that instead of redesigning the wheel and pretending that the "Stellar Federation" isn't Star Fleet from Star Trek, we could instead just have a Star Trek book for TORG.

As such, its a nice dream but probably will never happen.

[The Game Guy]

One thing I had always might come to pass wasn't that ALL RPGs would use TORG's system exclusively (which is far different than WotC's dreams for D&D and D20) but rather the companies would release AN edition that used TORG system.
So that instead of redesigning the wheel and pretending that the "Stellar Federation" isn't Star Fleet from Star Trek, we could instead just have a Star Trek book for TORG.

As such, its a nice dream but probably will never happen.

Don't know. It totally depends on how the system is rewritten. Just like D20 it wont work for everything, but it would work for a number of settings.

Were you thinking the Torg system as is or the TORG system as per Hellsreach's revisions?

[skeloric]

Don't know. It totally depends on how the system is rewritten. Just like D20 it wont work for everything, but it would work for a number of settings.

Were you thinking the Torg system as is or the TORG system as per Hellsreach's revisions?
Any or all of them really but mostly as whoever buys it might remake it.
I'd like to see dozen or two official "TORGifications" of extant settings.
Tekumel re-envisioned by its owner as a TORG Cosm, either as defender or invader.
Mongoose publishing releasing a "Freedom City" superhero Cosm based upon the Mutants and Masterminds' setting.
TORG could go sufficiently "open source" to allow different companies to release their own setting as a Cosm.
The Prime Directive TORG Edition sourcebook?
This would snap up so many gamers with the promise of Deadlands AND Shadowrun both existing in the same system.
Maybe a TORG edition Spycraft...

The ramifications boggle my mind -- if someone could get the project off the ground.

[The Game Guy]

Any or all of them really but mostly as whoever buys it might remake it.
I'd like to see dozen or two official "TORGifications" of extant settings.
Tekumel re-envisioned by its owner as a TORG Cosm, either as defender or invader.
Mongoose publishing releasing a "Freedom City" superhero Cosm based upon the Mutants and Masterminds' setting.
TORG could go sufficiently "open source" to allow different companies to release their own setting as a Cosm.
The Prime Directive TORG Edition sourcebook?
This would snap up so many gamers with the promise of Deadlands AND Shadowrun both existing in the same system.
Maybe a TORG edition Spycraft...

The ramifications boggle my mind -- if someone could get the project off the ground.

Yep, you make some good points. And if a few well written TORG novels were created, it would get TORG out to the general public. Maybe have an ad in the book (as I have seen before in other game related books) and maybe more people can get interested in gaming.

Who knows?

[Stormchild]

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the time for RPG-novels is about to be over. Sure there are some published still, but this doesn't even come close to the pletora of books that were published in the 90s. I think the modern media for this are computer games, comics, anime and (computer-)animated movies.

[skeloric]

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the time for RPG-novels is about to be over. Sure there are some published still, but this doesn't even come close to the pletora of books that were published in the 90s. I think the modern media for this are computer games, comics, anime and (computer-)animated movies.
An avalanche of crappy "I only read it because its my favorite RPG setting and if I don't buy this they'll never churn out more turgid crap to foist off on me" RPG novels have hopefully reached the end of their age.
There are still new novels being written for Warhammer 40K and even Shadowrun and of course the ever consistent "more popular than it really deserves" D&D has a huge catalog of new novels coming out.
Some companies seem to be more popular in fiction than they are in the RPG sales themselves.
Indeed it is quite likely the fiction that has kept the company solvent as their RPG sales couldn't possibly be doing it.

[Greg M.]

An avalanche of crappy "I only read it because its my favorite RPG setting and if I don't buy this they'll never churn out more turgid crap to foist off on me" RPG novels have hopefully reached the end of their age.

PRAISE BE TO THE MAN WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH FOR BLESSED SHALL HE BE


D&D has a huge catalog of new novels coming out.
Some companies seem to be more popular in fiction than they are in the RPG sales themselves.
Indeed it is quite likely the fiction that has kept the company solvent as their RPG sales couldn't possibly be doing it.

If Wikipedia is to be believed, this was quite literally true of TSR in their waning years of the early-to-mid-'90s. It's funny to me that I ultimately found this forum and rekindled my interest in TORG based on an idle Wikipedia session of a few months ago . . . "I wonder whatever happened to TSR. They sure were insanely badly managed for a company that was sitting on a mint at their height." . . . "man, I wonder whatever happened with TORG. TORG was way better than D&D." . . . and history was made, or not.

[The Game Guy]

An avalanche of crappy "I only read it because its my favorite RPG setting and if I don't buy this they'll never churn out more turgid crap to foist off on me" RPG novels have hopefully reached the end of their age.

There are still new novels being written for Warhammer 40K and even Shadowrun and of course the ever consistent "more popular than it really deserves" D&D has a huge catalog of new novels coming out.
Some companies seem to be more popular in fiction than they are in the RPG sales themselves.
Indeed it is quite likely the fiction that has kept the company solvent as their RPG sales couldn't possibly be doing it.

I agree. If novels are to be published they shouldn't be churned out crap. I am talking about (and you mention this that there are still good ones out there) well done novels. And I was thinking novels not just found in game stores but found on Amazon.com and Barnes and Noble, normal book stores where there is more exposure.

[Stormchild]

But what construes a good novel? One thing could be that it has an original style. But this can only done once or in one product line. My favourite in this are the Discworld novels. A bad example is the Eternal champion series of Michael Moorcock. It is basically the same story over and over, viewed from different angles and sometimes with different outcome. I loved it at first but later on it produced only yawns.

Good RPG novels are rare and do often rely on good authors that don't find an original twist but have a good writing style. Nigel Findley f.i. The only original idea I can remember from RPG novels is the first Shadowrun novel "Into the Shadows" which is not your traditional anthology but a red thread that connects the short stories into one big intrigue.

I think this kind of story-writing could still be used for Torg or Bloodshadows. I just read the Torg trilogy and Interview with evil again and none managed to impress me. I can remember that the antholgies (2 Nile, 1 Aysle) where not that good either, some stories impressed me but not all. With a read thread the weak stories don't count that much as it is the frame story that connects.

[The Game Guy]

But what construes a good novel? One thing could be that it has an original style. But this can only done once or in one product line. My favourite in this are the Discworld novels. A bad example is the Eternal champion series of Michael Moorcock. It is basically the same story over and over, viewed from different angles and sometimes with different outcome. I loved it at first but later on it produced only yawns.

Good RPG novels are rare and do often rely on good authors that don't find an original twist but have a good writing style. Nigel Findley f.i. The only original idea I can remember from RPG novels is the first Shadowrun novel "Into the Shadows" which is not your traditional anthology but a red thread that connects the short stories into one big intrigue.

I think this kind of story-writing could still be used for Torg or Bloodshadows. I just read the Torg trilogy and Interview with evil again and none managed to impress me. I can remember that the antholgies (2 Nile, 1 Aysle) where not that good either, some stories impressed me but not all. With a read thread the weak stories don't count that much as it is the frame story that connects.

Ok I was thinking good from the standpoint well written and stays with the whole Torg Meta.

Sure, what is good is selective, but that is true on everything.

As for the novels you read, well they were propbably written when everyone was slinging out a game novel because they could.

When releasing a novel dont just release it because it's done, make sure it is well written and stays within the genre's framework.

A person who is interested in a setting from a book may translate over to a person who wants to game in that world.

[skeloric]

I wasn't even concerned so much with the fiction as I was with actual sourcebooks detailing different works of fiction as Cosms.
:)
But there is the classic final story in one of the collections that reads more like a jumbled mishmash more suited to RIFTS than TORG, complete with an Elven pulp private investigator combating what would seem to be an Ayslish mad scientist, or something.
With that held up as the epitome of "crap" I'd have to wonder if any new TORG fiction should be allowed to come to pass.

[Stormchild]

I just picked up "Out of Nippon" by Nigel Findley, one of my favourite authors. I am about 1/4 through and still don't know if I ever read it back when it was fresh. At least it shows I was not impressed.

It is supposed to go from Nippon to Orrorsh, but I am not that far with it. Up to where I am it is a shadowrun novel. It is written in the typical Findley quality and still it doesn't work. There are some good insights into the Japanese corporate culture but it has no flavour of its own.

Reading it I wondered if there is a difference between Nippon Tech corporate culture and Shadowrun corporate culture. In order to construe a good RPG novel it need not only be of good writing, it has also to reflect the distinct flavour of the RPG setting and Findley missed that.

[skeloric]

I just picked up "Out of Nippon" by Nigel Findley, one of my favourite authors. I am about 1/4 through and still don't know if I ever read it back when it was fresh. At least it shows I was not impressed.

It is supposed to go from Nippon to Orrorsh, but I am not that far with it. Up to where I am it is a shadowrun novel. It is written in the typical Findley quality and still it doesn't work. There are some good insights into the Japanese corporate culture but it has no flavour of its own.

Reading it I wondered if there is a difference between Nippon Tech corporate culture and Shadowrun corporate culture. In order to construe a good RPG novel it need not only be of good writing, it has also to reflect the distinct flavour of the RPG setting and Findley missed that.
I think the absence of supernatural elements in the beginning and the distorted "Possibility Wars" info on the "American" radio station in Japan would be flavor enough.
However, it gets much better with the rare look at life in Orrorsh as they eventually go there.
I think it the strongest book in the TORG fiction line -- even surpassing the original trilogy.
As actual novels are rare enough, a novel even partly set in Orrorsh makes it much different from the majority.

I'm still not so certain of the "Shadowrun" vibe you are getting as it is made quite clear that there is no room for such "flights of irresponsible fancy" in Marketplace's invaded Japan.

[Stormchild]

In Shadowrun Findley always was the best to describe how corporate employees behave. And he describes different behaviours for each step on the corporate ladder from the corporate drone who acts out of instinct in line with the expected corporate behaviour up to the top execs who take pains to surpass any expectations in behaviour.

Yes, this is basically nothing more but an exaggeration of extremely professional behaviour of nowadays top notch businesspeople. But he thought about so many details that it became a distinct style of his, copied by other Shadowrun authors. But he used the same style for this Torg novel. There of course is mostly shown the middle management, but they behave practically the same as japanese middle management in Shadowrun (and it has nothing to do with how japanese middle management works in the real world, though some stereotypes stemming from prejudices the media highlighted can be recognized).

I have to admit, I was impressed about how much Findley knew about the Torg background, he obviously did his homework. But it left me with the feeling as if he wasn't really at home in Torg. Maybe you understand what I mean when you imagine somebody who hasn't visited your home country but nonetheless writes about it using knowledge he has obtained from newspapers, magazines and TV.

What really struck me as odd was when the american woman was accused of listening to american radio, just as if the US and Nippon where at war. I always saw it as part of Kanawa's strategy to officially align with Core Earth, especially the Delphi Council. Though it is an uneasy alliance, it is an alliance nonetheless. And don't forget that Kanawa and its subsidaries do business all over the world, bringing their employees with them. Of course, the Kanawa-controlled media can suppress a lot but why should they? When people come back from assignements in other parts of the world, they have a lot to tell. Though the top notch people would be discrete, it is difficult to keep the whole staff from telling. And gossip leaks through. Naturally, Kanawa could use natives of the countries they do business with, instead of bringing staff from japan, but this would be a much more dangerous road, as the natives could gain insight into how Kanawa operates. There really is no need for this level of subterfuge.

The xenophobia Findley describes certainly makes sense. But I did never see it as a lack of interest in the rest of the world, rather it is the knowledge of how screwed up the rest of the world is. So, the Nippon media as I understand it, would highlight the events in the rest of the world to illustrate how dangerous and desolate everything out of Nippon is, increasing the feeling of the typical sarariman to be happy to live in the best part of the world that has been spared from the Poss wars. Instead Findley describes a media that denies the Poss wars even existed.

Another odd twist is the burakumin. Findley practically left them out. As I understand Nippon Tech, the existence of the burakumin is used to frighten the sararimen and use the prospect of falling to burakumin status to keep the sararimen in line. In Shadowrun companies care for their employees and the employees trade away for that their free will, individuality and spare time. In Nippon Tech, as I understand it, nobody is interested in the wellfare of the employees. The knowledge that burakumin status waits for those who lose their job is enough to keep the sararimen in line, so they can be treated any way the company likes.

Now I am halfway through that book and still don't feel better about it.

[The Game Guy]

I wasn't even concerned so much with the fiction as I was with actual sourcebooks detailing different works of fiction as Cosms.
:)
But there is the classic final story in one of the collections that reads more like a jumbled mishmash more suited to RIFTS than TORG, complete with an Elven pulp private investigator combating what would seem to be an Ayslish mad scientist, or something.
With that held up as the epitome of "crap" I'd have to wonder if any new TORG fiction should be allowed to come to pass.

Well I personally care about the ficition and don't think novels shouldn't be done as sourcebooks, they should be done as just novels so the readers can enter the setting through the fiction and get to know the world.

I would imagine there are games out there that don't lend themselves to work as novels and writting novels for those settings should be avoided.

[skeloric]

I think we've confused things a bit.
This wasn't so much the "fiction -- love it or hate it" thread as it was the "I hope for licensed Cosms" thread.

Still, if a Cosm came from perhaps from "Timeline - 191" -- Harry Turtledove's "How Few Remain, The Great War: American Front, Great War: Walk in Hell," etc. where the South won the Civil War in 1862 when certain Confederate orders were recovered by the South rather than found by the North.
Well, one could have both a great series of fiction and a great Cosm.

[The Game Guy]

I think we've confused things a bit.
This wasn't so much the "fiction -- love it or hate it" thread as it was the "I hope for licensed Cosms" thread.

Still, if a Cosm came from perhaps from "Timeline - 191" -- Harry Turtledove's "How Few Remain, The Great War: American Front, Great War: Walk in Hell," etc. where the South won the Civil War in 1862 when certain Confederate orders were recovered by the South rather than found by the North.
Well, one could have both a great series of fiction and a great Cosm.

Ok, now I understand what you are getting at and that makes sense