Finding players where you are- Easy or Hard?

[The Game Guy]

I was just curious to find out if people find it hard to find players for their groups or whether it is easy for them.

Where I am in PA it has been difficult. It looks like I will finally be getting a group together, but it has taken a lot of work.

How is it where you are?

[skeloric]

Finding D&D players: somewhat easy.
Finding players of an RPG worth playing: nearly impossible.

[Whill]

Finding D&D players: somewhat easy.
Finding players of an RPG worth playing: nearly impossible.

So far that seems to be the case here in Columbus, Ohio as well. The only games I have played in the past few years were a few D&D 3.5 campaigns and one Call of Cthulhu adventure, because those were the only games that my local friends wanted to play. I think they got tired of me complaining about d20, and so did I.

Due to life changes and several moves of myself and my old Star Wars D6 players in the past decade, we are now fairly seperated from each other. I have just recently increased my efforts in investigating the local RPG scene to find new Star Wars D6 players...

[Stormchild]

Players per se are no problem in Wuppertal, Germany. We had a con every quarter and a roleplaying pub. Though both are no more, the players are still there. As I have a regular group, I did not look for new players in quite a while but I think it would be no problem.

[pathfinderap]

Finding D&D players: somewhat easy.
Finding players of an RPG worth playing: Priceless

There fixed it for you lol

[skeloric]

There fixed it for you lol
LOL.
Yeah.
But D&Ders come dime a dozen.
Me, I'm looking for the guy supplying the dimes.

[Kansas Jim]

I'm in a small college town so there's usually gamers around, the trick has been finding players who haven't already booked up all their free time with other games. And of course my usual bad timing, on the rare occasions when I meet players looking for a game I'm the one who doesn't have the time to run anything.

[The Game Guy]

I am wondering if the claims that game pool is shrinking is true. There just doesnt seem to be as many gamers as their used to be. People I used to game with dont game anymore. I know there are alot of diversions that takes people's attention away from rpgs.

It's sad, since role playing is a great hobby.

[Whill]

I don't have any statistics, but it is hard for me to believe that pool of RPG players in general is shrinking in any significant way. I think it is possible that the pool of WEG players and non-WotC gamers may be decreasing though. Looking at the all the new D&D 4E books and the future release schedule, D&D seems like a juggernaut that's not slowing down. I don't think WotC could produce like they do if people weren't buying the books, and I don't think people wouldn't be buying the books like they are if they weren't actually playing the game.

[The Game Guy]

I don't have any statistics, but it is hard for me to believe that pool of RPG players in general is shrinking in any significant way. I think it is possible that the pool of WEG players and non-WotC gamers may be decreasing though. Looking at the all the new D&D 4E books and the future release schedule, D&D seems like a juggernaut that's not slowing down. I don't think WotC could produce like they do if people weren't buying the books, and I don't think people wouldn't be buying the books like they are if they weren't actually playing the game.

Well when you have people in the industry like Ken Hite saying it (as well as others) I do believe it.

I am sure there will always be D&D sales because most of the people who play D&D will buy the newest version.

I think things like Console games, MMORPGS and other things are taking away potential gamers.

That said, I am not claming that the hobby is dying, that would be silly. I do think that gamers are leaving the hobby, though the drop is slow and I do not think there are as many new gamers jumping into the hobby to fill the spots of the gamers leaving.

So it's a leak, but a slow leak.

Believe me, the non-WOTC arent the only ones who have suffered. WOTC was one of the game companies doing layoffs as well. It probably isnt hurting them as bad, but it is still effecting them.

[pathfinderap]

Look people, there are like SIX BILLION PEOPLE on this planet right now,

A larger percentage of those people are playing other games,
not because they don't like RPG's, but for the simple fact....

THEY DON'T KNOW THEY EXIST,

[Kalzazz]

Im having a hard time, I dont have time to go hunt people down. And dunno if Id have time to do RPGs if I did

[The Game Guy]

Look people, there are like SIX BILLION PEOPLE on this planet right now,

A larger percentage of those people are playing other games,
not because they don't like RPG's, but for the simple fact....

THEY DON'T KNOW THEY EXIST,

I agree, the role playing game industry has really created games to apeal to people who are already gamers, instead of getting the word out and attracting mre people to the hobby.

It's very sad, because the industry could spend a little bit of money and if they attact a few new gamers could recoup that money wth new sales.

[skeloric]

I agree, the role playing game industry has really created games to apeal to people who are already gamers, instead of getting the word out and attracting mre people to the hobby.

It's very sad, because the industry could spend a little bit of money and if they attact a few new gamers could recoup that money wth new sales.

D&D used to be advertised in comic books.
For awhile i thought I saw TV ads as well.

Reaching BEYOND the captive audience like that like they used to would be nice.

[Whill]

I think that WotC has made a lot of effort to attract new players... to D&D. I've heard the rumblings of many longtime D&D fans that feel the new edition is too dumbed down in an attempt to be more attractive to new players. (Of course I don't attempt to understand these gamers that feel D&D is not complicated enough, and despite their complaints they buy it anyway).

Anyway, I think WotC realized that D&D is very intimidating to even generate a character for the first time if you've never played it before. I am by no means a new gamer, playing D&D for the first time in 1980 (4th grade). For me, I went about 14 years without playing D&D at all (from 2nd edition to 3.5), and it took me hours to make a "simple" fighter, and I felt like crying before it was over. I can imagine what a new gamer must feel like. But hey, come on Jimmy, give it a try - all the cool kids are doing it...

I agree there doesn't seem to be any industry-wide initiatives to get new gamers into RPGs in general. I'm just pointing out that WotC is all about marketing and selling products to new customers.

[skeloric]

I think that WotC has made a lot of effort to attract new players... to D&D. I've heard the rumblings of many longtime D&D fans that feel the new edition is too dumbed down in an attempt to be more attractive to new players. (Of course I don't attempt to understand these gamers that feel D&D is not complicated enough, and despite their complaints they buy it anyway).

Anyway, I think WotC realized that D&D is very intimidating to even generate a character for the first time if you've never played it before. I am by no means a new gamer, playing D&D for the first time in 1980 (4th grade). For me, I went about 14 years without playing D&D at all (from 2nd edition to 3.5), and it took me hours to make a "simple" fighter, and I felt like crying before it was over. I can imagine what a new gamer must feel like. But hey, come on Jimmy, give it a try - all the cool kids are doing it...

I agree there doesn't seem to be any industry-wide initiatives to get new gamers into RPGs in general. I'm just pointing out that WotC is all about marketing and selling products to new customers.
But all they ever see is D&D which is as bad as not being in gaming at all.
After all, they probably assume that all other RPGs must be even more difficult to play and since all that they will likely ever see is D&D, they will never discover otherwise.
Which means we lose a potential gamer because "RPGs are too hard".

[The Game Guy]

But all they ever see is D&D which is as bad as not being in gaming at all.
After all, they probably assume that all other RPGs must be even more difficult to play and since all that they will likely ever see is D&D, they will never discover otherwise.
Which means we lose a potential gamer because "RPGs are too hard".

Well I consider people who just play D&D "D&D Players" not role players. I think true roleplayers are the people who play all types of games, not just D&D

[Whill]

Well I consider people who just play D&D "D&D Players" not role players. I think true roleplayers are the people who play all types of games, not just D&D

Does playing many different types of games in the past count? I ask because I am currently only interested in playing one game, Star Wars D6. I haven't played any games since 2005. And I haven't even played Star Wars since before then. Sadly, D&D 3.5 was the last game I played. :(

In the past, I have also played Basic/Expert D&D, AD&D, D&D 2nd Ed., Star Frontiers, Top Secret, TSR's Marvel Superheroes (w/ original heroes in an original reality), TSR's Indiana Jones, Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, Torg, Shadow Run, some Star Trek rpg, and probably many others I am forgetting. I've also owned several other games that I never ended up playing.

And oh yes, as a 12-year-old I also created the very first Star Wars RPG back in 1983. The game mechanics were based on the D&D Basic system, the only RPG I had ever played and owned, at the time. :cool:

I consider myself a role-player, and a former D&D player.

[skeloric]

Does playing many different types of games in the past count?

Yeah, if you have a nice repertoire of games you have played/run, you are definitely not a "D&D gamer"



I consider myself a role-player, and a former D&D player.
I as well.

[The Game Guy]

Does playing many different types of games in the past count? I ask because I am currently only interested in playing one game, Star Wars D6. I haven't played any games since 2005. And I haven't even played Star Wars since before then. Sadly, D&D 3.5 was the last game I played. :(

In the past, I have also played Basic/Expert D&D, AD&D, D&D 2nd Ed., Star Frontiers, TSR's Marvel Superheroes (w/ original heroes in an original reality), TSR's Indiana Jones, Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia, Torg, Shadow Run, some Star Trek rpg, and probably many others I am forgetting. I've also owned several other games that I never ended up playing.

And oh yes, as a 12-year-old I also created the very first Star Wars RPG back in 1983. The game mechanics were based on the D&D Basic system, the only RPG I had ever played and owned, at the time. :cool:

I consider myself a role-player, and a former D&D player.

Yes it does. A D&D Player only plays D&D and will not branch out. You at least branched out and played other games. You may only be able to find a D&D game now, but you havent stuck to D&D only and refused to play anything else.

[skeloric]

Look people, there are like SIX BILLION PEOPLE on this planet right now,

A larger percentage of those people are playing other games,
not because they don't like RPG's, but for the simple fact....

THEY DON'T KNOW THEY EXIST,
[I thought I'd address this directly]

And where would they go to know that other games exist?
My home city's last hope of a game shop is dead, which is part of a growing epidemic -- source #1 removed.
Barnes & Noble only carries a rudimentary selection of D&D and World of Darkness the only two "Mass Market" RPG companies -- source #2 dead on arrival for 90% of the RPG market.
"Word of mouth" -- isn't reaching them or isn't trying -- source #3 defeated by logistics.

Only D&D (and to a lesser extent White Wolf) have broken into the mainstream.
Any RPG that wishes to survive must be there as well.
A process that would take millions in advertising, millions that most RPG companies can't hope to make these days and thus cannot hope to employ.

[Stormchild]

What do small retailers in order to combat the big chains? They throw their budgets together for an ad campaign, some go even that far to create a common brand under which they all operate. This could also be a way for the hobby stores and the rpg companies.

[Whill]

Columbus has at least 2 gaming shops still in business. I bought all of my books from the latest edition of D6 (Space, etc.) as well as my D&D 3.5 Player Handbook from them. I think there may possibly be a 3rd store but if so, I've never been to it. I really try to support my local shops, and only buy online for something that is not available in the stores (like all the out-ofprint stuff I buy).

These stores still being open implies that they must have enough business to stay open, and that gives me some hope that out of all those customers there will people for me to form a new D6 game group from. But sadly, most of those customers are just buying WotC products.

[pathfinderap]

[I thought I'd address this directly]

And where would they go to know that other games exist?
My home city's last hope of a game shop is dead, which is part of a growing epidemic -- source #1 removed.
Barnes & Noble only carries a rudimentary selection of D&D and World of Darkness the only two "Mass Market" RPG companies -- source #2 dead on arrival for 90% of the RPG market.
"Word of mouth" -- isn't reaching them or isn't trying -- source #3 defeated by logistics.

Only D&D (and to a lesser extent White Wolf) have broken into the mainstream.
Any RPG that wishes to survive must be there as well.
A process that would take millions in advertising, millions that most RPG companies can't hope to make these days and thus cannot hope to employ.


Well, thats the problem, little to no profile, can't blame them for not buying if they don't know they are there, thats my point,

And add to this negative stereotypes from years past that tend to stop some players talking openly about the hobby in public,

RPG = GEEK

You want to be a geek?,

But remember, people like Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Vin Diesel and Steven Spielberg to name but a few were roleplayers,

[The Game Guy]

We have 2 game stores around where I am (well technically 3). One is a comic store with only a few game items, mostly D &D and only a few books (which is why I barely count it), a game store that sells only rpgs and board games (very rare these days) and a comic book store that sells role playing games (has a great selection).

As for supporting the FLGS I do to a point, but I find I am buying more online because I can get it cheaper and I dont see a point in supporting my FLGS and paying full price.

I know people like to say "Well they are good for introducing people to the hobby" yet none of the gamers I know were ever introduced to the hobby that way. They were taught by being invited in a game group and learning that way. That's how I learned

[skeloric]

Well, thats the problem, little to no profile, can't blame them for not buying if they don't know they are there, thats my point,

And add to this negative stereotypes from years past that tend to stop some players talking openly about the hobby in public,
RPG = GEEK
You want to be a geek?,

Yeah, that is only part of what the hypothetical ad campaign will need to address.



But remember, people like Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Vin Diesel and Steven Spielberg to name but a few were roleplayers,
On the contrary, they are D&D gamers.
Never once have any of them ever mentioned playing something other than D&D.
Thus D&D gets more publicity while everything else gets screwed over by once again withering away, trapped in the shadow of D&D.

[pathfinderap]

On the contrary, they are D&D gamers.
Never once have any of them ever mentioned playing something other than D&D.

Well, not contrary at all, they sell D&D as a Roleplaying game do they not?,

Hence "Roleplayers"

It doesn't matter which game as long as it is a RPG

[Whill]

My 2 local game shops booth have a lot of different RPGs, minatures, and board games, but no comics. I have also been to a couple comic book stores that have a few D&D books and that's about it. Borders (big box chain) always has multiple copies of all of the current edition WotC books (D&D and Star Wars), but no other RPGs at all.

I should have clarified that I bought all my WEG D6 products from the local game stores. I did so not only to support the stores but also to give them more incentive to continue keeping the D6 products on the shelves. I'm happy that both shops always have in stock one copy of all of the current WEG D6 books (but they don't always have all of the licensed products like the Godsend Agenda).

However, I refuse to buy any WotC Star Wars products in any retail stores for two reasons: (1.) I don't want to support WotC further in stores that already have all the incentive they need to carry their products. And (2.) they are just too expensive to buy retail. Just last night I ordered two brand new hardcover WotC Star Wars books on Amazon for 34% off retail price with free shipping.


You want to be a geek?

No. That's why I prefer "nerd". Thank you. :cool:

[skeloric]

Well, not contrary at all, they sell D&D as a Roleplaying game do they not?,

Hence "Roleplayers"

It doesn't matter which game as long as it is a RPG

They can sell poison as food, but that don't mean it is.

[skeloric]

If all someone plays is D&D and other D20/OGL games they are neither a roleplayer nor a gamer, they are a D&D player.
Evolving beyond D&D and its ilk is what typifies a roleplayer or gamer.
Just as one who picked up a deck a cards and flung them about the room is not as card game player, so also as those who only play D&D not gamers/roleplayers.

[Whill]

skel, your hatred of D&D shows no bounds. :)

[Whill]

Yes it does. A D&D Player only plays D&D and will not branch out. You at least branched out and played other games. You may only be able to find a D&D game now, but you havent stuck to D&D only and refused to play anything else.

Yeah, but now I'm devoted only to Star Wars D6 and nothing else. I guess that makes me a little bit better than a "D&D player."

[pathfinderap]

No. That's why I prefer "nerd". Thank you. :cool:

Hey, nerds are just geeks with degrees, lol :D

[Whill]

I never knew that was the distinction. Thank you! Since I do have degrees now I can back up my claims that I am not a geek. :)

[hellsreach]

I always figured a nerd was someone who was a bit overly focused on academics to the point of neglecting their position in pop culture/ society. A geek is a person who is equally or moreso obscessive about "subjects" which exist outside of popular culture. So in a way -- nerds are geeks with degrees because they are acadamians. Moreso, I thing a big difference is a nerd operates outside of most social units whereas geeks tend to gravitate towards other of shared interest and form social circles outside of mainstream culture.

2c

[skeloric]

Yeah, but now I'm devoted only to Star Wars D6 and nothing else. I guess that makes me a little bit better than a "D&D player."
As long as it isn't D&D and derivatives, you are still a gamer and roleplayer just like everyone else.

[Stormchild]

A nerd is a pinhead as described by Pratchet. He is able to go from collecting pins to collecting stamps to collecting, let's say...RPGs. Where are my glasses?

[The Game Guy]

As long as it isn't D&D and derivatives, you are still a gamer and roleplayer just like everyone else.

I just broke down and bought the 4th edition players handbook for D&D. I figure there are plenty of D&D games to get in if I want to play. I will, however play other games and my focus will stay with playing different games.

[Whill]

I just broke down and bought the 4th edition players handbook for D&D. I figure there are plenty of D&D games to get in if I want to play. I will, however play other games and my focus will stay with playing different games.

After you have a chance to go through it, let us know what you think in the General RPG forum.

[Cryonic]

I haven't ever had problems finding games. I don't get all the hate about D&D or D&D4E specifically.

[skeloric]

I don't get all the hate about D&D or D&D4E specifically.
I'll try.
It wasn't so bad really until the big buy-out when TSR's entire list of properties became property of WotC and 3.0 arrived.
Idyllic days when we looked at the new 3rd Edition as if it were manna from heaven and perhaps it was in those far off days.
But the name carries too much weight beyond the insular gaming market.
When people outside the gamer market heard D&D, they didn't think "ROLE PLAYING GAME", they just thought "D&D".
Not a new problem but a problem if you happen NOT to be D&D as all the other RPGs happen NOT to be.
But with the D20 license and the OGL, WotC leveraged that unhealthy position that D&D has retained over the years of being the ONLY RPG that a frighteningly large percentage of the planet can name without effort into threatening to become what many already considered them to be: THE ONLY RPG SYSTEM.

As "one among many", D&D was not a truly monstrous thing, but it is not the best choice for every damn RPG setting to utilize as a system and by threatening to become so it displayed itself as a monumental threat to anyone to would like to PLAY SOMETHING ELSE, OTHER THAN D&D.

We hate it like we hate the threat of terrorism or the threat of a repressive dictatorship as, in the RPG community, it is coming to represent exactly that.

[The Game Guy]

After you have a chance to go through it, let us know what you think in the General RPG forum.

I sure will. Right now my main problem is so much good game stuff to read, so little time ;)

[The Game Guy]

But with the D20 license and the OGL, WotC leveraged that unhealthy position that D&D has retained over the years of being the ONLY RPG that a frighteningly large percentage of the planet can name without effort into threatening to become what many already considered them to be: THE ONLY RPG SYSTEM.

As "one among many", D&D was not a truly monstrous thing, but it is not the best choice for every damn RPG setting to utilize as a system and by threatening to become so it displayed itself as a monumental threat to anyone to would like to PLAY SOMETHING ELSE, OTHER THAN D&D.

We hate it like we hate the threat of terrorism or the threat of a repressive dictatorship as, in the RPG community, it is coming to represent exactly that.

Except people are now moving on to different systems after reaching D20 burnout, companies are now switching to other systems because of the D20 glut and many of the fly-by-night companies that jumped in and flooded the market with D20 are long gone.

Sure the shelves are flooded with D20 stuff, much of it doesnt move (at least not at my FLGS).

Sure I wish someone with big bucks would buy it all up and pulp it so the shelves would be free for other games, but it isn't going to happen.

The D20 of a few years is gone and its popularity is slowly waining.

[skeloric]

Except people are now moving on to different systems after reaching D20 burnout, companies are now switching to other systems because of the D20 glut and many of the fly-by-night companies that jumped in and flooded the market with D20 are long gone.

Sure the shelves are flooded with D20 stuff, much of it doesnt move (at least not at my FLGS).

Sure I wish someone with big bucks would buy it all up and pulp it so the shelves would be free for other games, but it isn't going to happen.

The D20 of a few years is gone and its popularity is slowly waining.
I think I'll still keep on hating it a while longer -- like until D&D is dead, dead, dead, and in its grave at least a decade.
Any incarnation.

[Cryonic]

I'll try.
It wasn't so bad really until the big buy-out when TSR's entire list of properties became property of WotC and 3.0 arrived.
Idyllic days when we looked at the new 3rd Edition as if it were manna from heaven and perhaps it was in those far off days.
But the name carries too much weight beyond the insular gaming market.
When people outside the gamer market heard D&D, they didn't think "ROLE PLAYING GAME", they just thought "D&D".
Not a new problem but a problem if you happen NOT to be D&D as all the other RPGs happen NOT to be.
But with the D20 license and the OGL, WotC leveraged that unhealthy position that D&D has retained over the years of being the ONLY RPG that a frighteningly large percentage of the planet can name without effort into threatening to become what many already considered them to be: THE ONLY RPG SYSTEM.

As "one among many", D&D was not a truly monstrous thing, but it is not the best choice for every damn RPG setting to utilize as a system and by threatening to become so it displayed itself as a monumental threat to anyone to would like to PLAY SOMETHING ELSE, OTHER THAN D&D.

We hate it like we hate the threat of terrorism or the threat of a repressive dictatorship as, in the RPG community, it is coming to represent exactly that.

In other words, you hate them because they are successful and your game of choice, TORG, wasn't.

[skeloric]

In other words, you hate them because they are successful and your game of choice, TORG, wasn't.
Not THAT simplistic, rather I hate them because their success is ONLY their success and does not really translate into success for the RPG industry as a whole.
Just like Voodoo Economics where the money was supposedly supposed to trickle down but never really did, more D&D fans does not mean more RPG fans.

[The Game Guy]

I think I'll still keep on hating it a while longer -- like until D&D is dead, dead, dead, and in its grave at least a decade.
Any incarnation.

Well I think you will be hating D&D for a long time because I dont think its going anywhere.

[Whill]

D&D is the first RPG, and it is still the best-selling and most popular game to this day (like it or not). I don't like the d20 system either, but I realize it's here to stay. I find that hating things makes it much harder to have a happy existence, so I choose not to "hate" d20. I can't say that I don't despise it though. :cool:

How I choose to constructively "fight the system" is that I've just narrowed the battle down to a personal scale and the Star Wars RPG, which is the main cause for most of my feelings about d20. I am devising a 3rd edition of Star Wars D6, and I am making physical player handbooks for personal group use (obviously not for sale or publication). I plan on making these handbooks so user-friendly and attractive that the players looking at them won't want to play anything else. I started the project with friends of mine who play D&D in mind, so my Star Wars D6 has to be good enough to "convert the faithful."

So what do I "win"? What do my efforts accomplish? Even though members of the group may still be involved with some d20 games, some of their time will be playing D6. That could open the door and generate interest in other non-d20 games. And IF I am lucky enough to see Star Wars coming back to D6 some day before I die, I will do everything I can to be involved. And even if I am not involved, I will still feel a sense of victory.

And in the unfortunately likely event that Star Wars never comes back to D6, I still have the satisfaction of playing D6 Star Wars despite the fact that the currently supported game is d20. My personal little rebellion against d20.

But I'm not going to even try to take on D&D, not even with D6 Fantasy. D&D will survive as long as table-top gaming survives. Maybe in the future we will be able to plug into the matrix and play virtual RPGs, and so table-top RPG will be obsolete. I may not see that in my lifetime though, but who knows? And I'm sure that one of the first virtual RPGs will be D&D.

[The Game Guy]

D&D is the first RPG, and it is still the best-selling and most popular game to this day (like it or not). I don't like the d20 system either, but I realize it's here to stay. I find that hating things makes it much harder to have a happy existence, so I choose not to "hate" d20. I can't say that I don't despise it though. :cool:

Right. Going nuts about D20 (Like Skeloric does) is like walking onto the beach and pounding sand. It's not changing anything.

It's popularity is wearing off and a bunch of companies are abandoning it which I think it is a good thing. I think it will be less and less visiable and we will see more games come out that use their own system and things will circle back around again.

Will D20 totally go away? No, select people will still play it and that is fine.