Hellsreach- Tell us about your TORG 2.0

[The Game Guy]

Hellsreach,

I would like to hear some of the changes that you made in your version of TORG 2.0.

I know you said you got a great deal of it done and I am curious to find out what improvements you have made to an already great game.

[skeloric]

I had an entire thread covering just that topic.
Everything he ever said about TORG2 I collected and saved.
The "infamous" update thread (http://www.westendgames.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367)

Maybe it could be collected and moved here to this thread?

[The Game Guy]

I had an entire thread covering just that topic.
Everything he ever said about TORG2 I collected and saved.
The "infamous" update thread (http://www.westendgames.com/forum/showthread.php?t=367)

Maybe it could be collected and moved here to this thread?

Well I was hoping that maybe Hellreach would post a comperhensive thread here was all of the information in one place.

[skeloric]

Well I was hoping that maybe Hellreach would post a comperhensive thread here was all of the information in one place.
Actually, that would be cool.
A lot of what he WAS talking about seemed quite wonderful and would have made TORG2 a hit with me at least.

[The Game Guy]

Actually, that would be cool.
A lot of what he WAS talking about seemed quite wonderful and would have made TORG2 a hit with me at least.

Alot of what he was talking about really did excite me about it as well. I think it would have fixed a bunch of things and if publisned could turn TORGS fortunes around.

Perhaps when the new owner buys WEG it can happen. But I still want to hear his thoughts and changes on TORG. Perhaps there are some new things he has done/things that werent mentioned before.

[hellsreach]

Laying out changes would take a really, really long time.

[The Game Guy]

Laying out changes would take a really, really long time.

How about just giving us some of the basics.

[hellsreach]

Stream of consiousness -- nothing is in any order:

There will little things like sperating PE, and skill points and how PE was handed out. I made a few attribute changes... mostly wording, but even though might not have been official. I intended to add a 5th axiom (Psionics).

I drastically changed how miracles worked and altered Occult magic to be a function of Spiritual Axiom (and made it's use a variation on the manner in which miracles worked, but replaced piety with "Subjugation" (never thought of a better name), which, compelled spiritual forces to do your bidding rather than request -- It was harder, potentially more powerful and hand a "bashlash-like" componant that could would often result in the occultist eventually being rended apart or to drooling insanity -- given enough time, this was the result for most occultists.

More robust "powers" suction, of with combat maneuvers become a major componant. Martial Art was treated differently. with martial arts, you had the opportunity to pick from certain combat maneuvers which could greatly improve your hand-to-hand, and melee skill and damage -- sometimes at a cost. Certain combat maneuvers were given axiom requirements -- many of which where psionic in nature.

I expanded group and individual "reality" based powers. Group power didn't require Eternity Shards in all cases. Individual reality powers could do many of the things that old group power could do before, plus new ones, but they tended to be expensive, rare and had a direct PE cost. Reality powers were not something for the young bucks. It was meant to be an important part of what would eventually have been Epic level torg -- Storm Lords, where the heroes took the fight beyond the confines of a single cosm and realized that a larger war existed for the uber powerful reality hoping heroes (Storm Lords) and the High Lords.

From a fictional standpoint, Darkness Devices were changed from the conspirators to being mere devices in the employ of the real power mongers -- the High Lords. DD's where essentially VERY VERY powerful Eterity Shards and the were that powerful because rather than simply being batteries that are passively charged by a realities inhabitants, they actively siphoned PE from the world.

I started to creat development rules for making other realities. That is, a reality became a character in it's own right. Besides giving advice on world creation, the idea was to be able to quantify the power level of a reality, thus helping to balance one against another. All realities are not created equal.

Character gen was changed so that all characters are built from a single pool of chargen points. No hard caps at all, but attribute and skill adds became progressively MORE expensive as they deviated from a racial baseline.

No more enhanced packages as they were. You could raise attributes naturally without using special reality rules and there would never be a contradiction, but some you could also buy enhancements at chargen that usually have axiom requirements. Like any tool, you could elect to use, or not use these enhanced attributes to avoid diconnection. Enhancements, like anything, where bought outright and there was never an adventure cost.

Chargen was also looser. I GM could elect to run a low power campaign or a super high powered. At that was neccesary was to increase the number of chargen points. No bad excuses of cludge rules for allow you to create over-powered characters like techno-demons while pretending they are balaced to others. If you had the points to spend, you could make one. If not, no.

The damage system was simplified. Only 2 types of damage exist, rather than 3. Shock and K/O were rolled together as short term "stun" damage (still called Shock), while Wounds were long term.

Players were given more lee-way in determining how they want damage applied. Weapons were given NL (non-lethal) levels and allowed a player to determing how much lethal damage (wounds) could be turned into non-lethal damage (Shock). Some weapons automatically converted some damage to NL damage by design.

Basic Combat maneuvers allowed players more control over whether they wanted to sacrifice accuracy for damage and vice-versa, or sacrifice time (preparation) for increased accuracy/damage.

One-on-many/ Many-on-one rules were streamlined a touch.


------

In addition, I had layed out the plan for a war relaunch -- actually a different war -- without completely hand-waving away the previous war. Plans were made to lay out major war expansions at regular intervals to try and keep the war fresh.

Combatants were to be less rigidly defined. Many, many new realities were loosely developed, enough if they were not all to be used. Like I mentioned previously, I expected early players to be somewhat confined to a single Cosm (Core-Earth) but eventually, these bounderies would probably have been shed for a much larger campaign.

Well, that is enough for now. There was more... much more, but I've lost interest in trying to remember it all, or go through the chicken-scratch notes I have on it.

[The Game Guy]

First off, thank you for the insight on the changes in TORG that would appear in TORG 2.0


I drastically changed how miracles worked and altered Occult magic to be a function of Spiritual Axiom (and made it's use a variation on the manner in which miracles worked, but replaced piety with "Subjugation" (never thought of a better name), which, compelled spiritual forces to do your bidding rather than request -- It was harder, potentially more powerful and hand a "bashlash-like" componant that could would often result in the occultist eventually being rended apart or to drooling insanity -- given enough time, this was the result for most occultists.

Were you thinking of doing this from a standpoint where it would backfire on them if it failed, or this would happen if they used it too much?


I started to creat development rules for making other realities. That is, a reality became a character in it's own right. Besides giving advice on world creation, the idea was to be able to quantify the power level of a reality, thus helping to balance one against another. All realities are not created equal.

I have to admit I think this is a really cool component. This lets the players and the GM expand the universe and keep things fresh. This is a great idea.


Character gen was changed so that all characters are built from a single pool of chargen points. No hard caps at all, but attribute and skill adds became progressively MORE expensive as they deviated from a racial baseline.

I really like character generation using chargen points. It allows you to really customize characters, instead of having characters that are generally the same with some changes (is it feels with the old chargen system)


Chargen was also looser. I GM could elect to run a low power campaign or a super high powered. At that was neccesary was to increase the number of chargen points. No bad excuses of cludge rules for allow you to create over-powered characters like techno-demons while pretending they are balaced to others. If you had the points to spend, you could make one. If not, no.

That's great. That allows the GM to really customize the game


The damage system was simplified. Only 2 types of damage exist, rather than 3. Shock and K/O were rolled together as short term "stun" damage (still called Shock), while Wounds were long term.

Players were given more lee-way in determining how they want damage applied. Weapons were given NL (non-lethal) levels and allowed a player to determing how much lethal damage (wounds) could be turned into non-lethal damage (Shock). Some weapons automatically converted some damage to NL damage by design.

I am glad. I had a real problem with the damage rules in TORG. They were way too overcomplicated and they also made it really easiy to not do any damage (or do minimial damage).


In addition, I had layed out the plan for a war relaunch -- actually a different war -- without completely hand-waving away the previous war. Plans were made to lay out major war expansions at regular intervals to try and keep the war fresh.

Combatants were to be less rigidly defined. Many, many new realities were loosely developed, enough if they were not all to be used. Like I mentioned previously, I expected early players to be somewhat confined to a single Cosm (Core-Earth) but eventually, these bounderies would probably have been shed for a much larger campaign.

Very cool. Sounds like some great improvements. It soudns like you really updated the system and the game itself. I hope that it can eventually be published.

[skeloric]

A lot of what is there in the post was also in the snippets I collected though the snippets sometimes offered a different angle on it.

If I were the prospective new owner, I'd get a copy of the proposed changes and other notes and build around them if I could agree with them. (Which personally, I DO AGREE.)

I REALLY liked the idea of different power levels.
So if you wanted to run a low powered Nile Empire you got Indiana Jones but a high powered game could easily result in mid-1940's Superman who was nearly as powerful as the modern incarnation and would bend the Nile Empire until it broke with the current published rules.

[hellsreach]

Were you thinking of doing this from a standpoint where it would backfire on them if it failed, or this would happen if they used it too much?

"spiritual" based powers are harder by nature, than Magic. Miracles make up the difference through Community and by performing long and ornate rituals.

Occultists may also use rituals, but lack the benefit of Community to compel their spiritual subjects.

Failure in both cases has concequences. In miracles, a practicioner risks losing some amount of piety, and occultists does not risk losing occult adds, but instead, the spirit may break lose and attack the occultist directly. As of right now, there is no mechanism that will automatically make an occultist start being more dangerous with his spirit subjects and thus increase his changes of being harmed, except natural greed of power. Over time, nearly everyone wants a little more power than is really "safe," and will tend to bite off more than they can chew.




I have to admit I think this is a really cool component. This lets the players and the GM expand the universe and keep things fresh. This is a great idea.

Thanks



I really like character generation using chargen points. It allows you to really customize characters, instead of having characters that are generally the same with some changes (is it feels with the old chargen system)

That was they idea. Since I wanted Torg to have a much large feel -- empower players to play virtually any hero that they could envision (given enough chargen points), I wanted to give them the tools to do that.



That's great. That allows the GM to really customize the game

I've always been a big fan of Amber. Amber was a great setting for potential gaming and I thought that Torg was similar in many ways. I wanted to give players and chance to not only fight one desperate struggle on Earth, but to also become ulra power god-like people in their own right. It is possible and even probable that there are Storm Lords (good guys) that have managed to become rulers of entire cosms out there just like the High Lord enemies.

There are some philosophical issues here though: "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts, absolutely," as the addage goes.

I content that there are some folks out there that started as Storm Lords, became rampaging High Lords, and may not know they've change "sides" per se. Although the difference between a High Lord and a Storm Lord is pretty black and white, knowing where you stand may not always be so clear. There is a place for subjectivity.

As you become so powerful that almost no foe will stand in your way, often your final foes will simply be yourself.


I am glad. I had a real problem with the damage rules in TORG. They were way too overcomplicated and they also made it really easiy to not do any damage (or do minimial damage).

Torg is dated from a system standpoint and could use many streamlining mechanisms. I saw the point of all the damage mechanics and liked them, but there will always be a trade off between simplicity and "completeness.' Damage was one of the many areas I had to look at and ask, "does this added level of complexity do enough to justify it's existence." The answer was no.


Very cool. Sounds like some great improvements. It soudns like you really updated the system and the game itself. I hope that it can eventually be published.

Who knows...

[The Game Guy]

"spiritual" based powers are harder by nature, than Magic. Miracles make up the difference through Community and by performing long and ornate rituals.

Occultists may also use rituals, but lack the benefit of Community to compel their spiritual subjects.

Failure in both cases has concequences. In miracles, a practicioner risks losing some amount of piety, and occultists does not risk losing occult adds, but instead, the spirit may break lose and attack the occultist directly. As of right now, there is no mechanism that will automatically make an occultist start being more dangerous with his spirit subjects and thus increase his changes of being harmed, except natural greed of power. Over time, nearly everyone wants a little more power than is really "safe," and will tend to bite off more than they can chew.

This makes pefect sense. Failure with something like this shouldn't just be "you failed", but as you say it should have concequences.


That was they idea. Since I wanted Torg to have a much large feel -- empower players to play virtually any hero that they could envision (given enough chargen points), I wanted to give them the tools to do that.

That would be great. As I said I am a fan of TORG but I always felt it was a little limited in the character creation area and this clearly would help that problem


I've always been a big fan of Amber. Amber was a great setting for potential gaming and I thought that Torg was similar in many ways. I wanted to give players and chance to not only fight one desperate struggle on Earth, but to also become ulra power god-like people in their own right. It is possible and even probable that there are Storm Lords (good guys) that have managed to become rulers of entire cosms out there just like the High Lord enemies.

There are some philosophical issues here though: "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts, absolutely," as the addage goes.

I content that there are some folks out there that started as Storm Lords, became rampaging High Lords, and may not know they've change "sides" per se. Although the difference between a High Lord and a Storm Lord is pretty black and white, knowing where you stand may not always be so clear. There is a place for subjectivity.

As you become so powerful that almost no foe will stand in your way, often your final foes will simply be yourself.

That is an interesting point. I never really thought about that. I like starting at low levels and working up the ladder. That way the character grows when I get experience and improve the character and the character improvement feels earned.


Torg is dated from a system standpoint and could use many streamlining mechanisms. I saw the point of all the damage mechanics and liked them, but there will always be a trade off between simplicity and "completeness.' Damage was one of the many areas I had to look at and ask, "does this added level of complexity do enough to justify it's existence." The answer was no.

Well it feels dated because lets face it, its an old game. New ways to do things are discovered and better ways to handle things via the mechanics are discovered as well. It happens with all games, which is why there are new editions.

[Stormchild]

Do these Storm Lords also have means to dry darkness devices, stelae and other parts of the nameless one as High Lords do with eternity shards?

[hellsreach]

Do these Storm Lords also have means to dry darkness devices, stelae and other parts of the nameless one as High Lords do with eternity shards?

No, not stictly speaking. That is not to say that powerful manipulation of PE could no give one the tools to do so, one must be cafeful. Poss. Energy -- the good side -- is about life, creation, and hope. You cannot really use that powerful creative energy to drain and destroy.

Of course, there have certainly been times when a well meaning Storm Lord found the means to damage, drain and possibly destroy darkness device's, create stelae, and directly attack the the heart of other evil realities -- with the help of equally well meaning "eternity shards." ;)

Take a moment to question the true nature of good and evil. Most evil persons don't actually think they are, in fact, evil. The question is not really the whether one in motivated by purely evil ends, but rather what means you are willing to take to meet them. Fiction is full of morality plays where the protagonist gets in bed with evil, so they can find a way to destroy it, only to become the evil they seek to eliminate.

[The Game Guy]

No, not stictly speaking. That is not to say that powerful manipulation of PE could no give one the tools to do so, one must be cafeful. Poss. Energy -- the good side -- is about life, creation, and hope. You cannot really use that powerful creative energy to drain and destroy.

So it's like the light and dark side of the force in Star Wars?

[skeloric]

I had to stop my shock and try to recall something I thought I had read and I think I do recall it properly...
Possibility Energy has always had a "polarity".
It could seen in the novels and in some remote places in the 1.0 rulebook.
This is why there are several different sorts of PE use in the game.
High Lords and their minions have a more static variety that at one point was noted as being conferred upon them by the Darkness Device and there was some insinuation that they had no other way to gain PE except through the Device.
Whereas, the "Stormers"/Storm Knights are spontaneously generated by the (moment of) crisis which was -- at least in the trilogy -- a peculiar thing for the High Lords due to supposedly all of their Possibility Rated agents actually being Possibility Rated by design as an act of will by the Darkness Device itself thus lending credence to the more "static" version of being Possibility Rated.

While it seems strange to hear such things as "light and dark Possibility Energy", it was in fact assumed once upon a time in the game and trilogy.

[hellsreach]

So it's like the light and dark side of the force in Star Wars?

ONly somewhat. There is no light or dark side to PE energy, per se. But there is an important factor where a possibility rated individual most make a clear choice whether to fight for the side of good or evil. I'm not really able to say for certain what the relationship is directly. Possibility Energy itself comes from Aperios -- a force of hope and creation. NTO does not create PS, but provides the tools to rend it away from the land. so there is not "light" pssibility energy and "dark" possibility energy. Only there is "earned" (taken from the PE cycle for which the Storn Knight remains a part) and "stolen" energy (which is pulled from the world, interrupting the cycle and thus reduces the "hope" and creative energy of life).

[Stormchild]

I had to stop my shock and try to recall something I thought I had read and I think I do recall it properly...
Possibility Energy has always had a "polarity".
It could seen in the novels and in some remote places in the 1.0 rulebook.
This is why there are several different sorts of PE use in the game.
High Lords and their minions have a more static variety that at one point was noted as being conferred upon them by the Darkness Device and there was some insinuation that they had no other way to gain PE except through the Device.
Whereas, the "Stormers"/Storm Knights are spontaneously generated by the (moment of) crisis which was -- at least in the trilogy -- a peculiar thing for the High Lords due to supposedly all of their Possibility Rated agents actually being Possibility Rated by design as an act of will by the Darkness Device itself thus lending credence to the more "static" version of being Possibility Rated.

While it seems strange to hear such things as "light and dark Possibility Energy", it was in fact assumed once upon a time in the game and trilogy.

As far as I know there is only one Stormer created in the novels: Kane. And he is not created by any Darkness Device but in the same way Storm Knights are created, spontaneously. The Gaunt Man discovers him and tries to use him. There is also another one, the surgeon who is Decker's brother, but he is killed at his moment of transcedence. I don't know where your notion Stormers are created by the Darkness Device stems from.

[Stormchild]

ONly somewhat. There is no light or dark side to PE energy, per se. But there is an important factor where a possibility rated individual most make a clear choice whether to fight for the side of good or evil. I'm not really able to say for certain what the relationship is directly. Possibility Energy itself comes from Aperios -- a force of hope and creation. NTO does not create PS, but provides the tools to rend it away from the land. so there is not "light" pssibility energy and "dark" possibility energy. Only there is "earned" (taken from the PE cycle for which the Storn Knight remains a part) and "stolen" energy (which is pulled from the world, interrupting the cycle and thus reduces the "hope" and creative energy of life).

Another lecture for the university degree of Torg philosophy: the true nature of good and evil in Torg. I liked the way this aspect was handled by Michael Moorcock. Chaos is not evil, Order is not good, both are two sides of a coin and when one of them gains the upper hand it is no good news. Apeiros is creation without death, just like chaos was described by Moorcock. The Nameless One is destruction without merit, different to Order in Moorcock's world but nothing to be desired nonetheless. Order as Moorcock put it would in Torg terms be a world without any poss. Nothing changes, all is as it is. What I want to say is, the concept of good and evil is to simplistic to be used for Apeiros and The Nameless One.

[skeloric]

As far as I know there is only one Stormer created in the novels: Kane. And he is not created by any Darkness Device but in the same way Storm Knights are created, spontaneously. The Gaunt Man discovers him and tries to use him. There is also another one, the surgeon who is Decker's brother, but he is killed at his moment of transcedence. I don't know where your notion Stormers are created by the Darkness Device stems from.
It was more part of the Gaunt Man's reaction to "Stormers" appearing with each new conquest.
I had an image of his Possibility Rated agents forming in another fashion -- i.e. "not by chance" -- and thus such a strong reaction to the random generation of "Stormers".
There were other things as well but they aren't as clear as I'd them to be in my mind and thus I'd rather go back through and find them before trying to present them.

[hellsreach]

What I want to say is, the concept of good and evil is to simplistic to be used for Apeiros and The Nameless One.

I fully agree with that. Aperios and TNO are noy subject to the limitations of "good" and "evil." Good is adherance to a given morality -- whether it be a subjective or objective morality, and evil is outside of that morality. As Aperios and TNO are concepts, entities, symbols -- gods if you will -- the exist outside of any morality except perhaps the purpose for which they are defined. Creation/Hope/Chance or one hand, Destruction/Stasis/Predetermination on the other. Still, as human beings, it is only natural for us to identify TNO and his attributes as "evil". Certainly most of his servants-- who are themselves not beyond the concepts of morality -- are "evil," but it is inappropriate to lable The Nameless One as evil in itself. Likewise, Aperios is not "good." Possibility can be "bad" and have dire consequences to some. Still, every time one took a bad turn, that possibility was from Aperios and so could be, in a way, looked at as evil.

[Stormchild]

On the other hand, a world without any Possibilities is certainly not good for the people that live (or better lived) on that world. But what with a world without The Nameless One? Is this a world without destruction just as Moorcock described worlds where Order rules supreme? Or a world where the Poss are thrown out but not consumed (destroyed by TNO)? What kind of world would that be? In the Torg mythology these worlds where briefly mentioned but not described, a place (not THE PLACE) where Apeiros created without end. This reminded me of Moorcock's Chaos worlds.