Could Bloodshadows be done as a systemless setting?

[The Game Guy]

Just as the title says:

Do you think that Bloodshadows could be done as a systemless setting? Where you write up the setting to be able to be used with many different systems?

[skeloric]

Guh?
"Systemless" is a rather cheesy concept in my opinion unless the basic concept is all background for a near normal modern day situation -- such as a basic writeup about federal programs as they currently exist for reference in a game like World of Darkness or similar where the inference is that we are in the modern day and there is no need to invent a magic system or new special powers or anything else.

Bloodshadows just doesn't fit that.
It assumes "packages" to create different "races"/"species" as well as magic spells.
Might require also a certain amount of noir flavoring in some specific purpose-made mechanics.
In all, there is too much left to the GM to work out.

[Stormchild]

For a systemless setting you need something unique or very generic.
The promise of a systemless setting is: you can play it with any rules, so buy the background material in order to know what this setting is like.

For a generic setting the basic knowledge about this setting should be commonplace, f.i. this is a fantasy setting, you know what that means dwarves, elves, dragons etc. Bloodshadows doesn't fit this description.

For a unique setting, the setting needs to be common knowledge. I own some background material for Star Wars, Star Trek, Lords of the Rings and Stargate which I use for Roleplaying. But the Bloodshadows mixture of serie noir, horror and fantasy is not known at all to a broader public. The only movie about this is Cast a Deadly Spell and that is not even carried in most DVD-Shops.

So I think, it is not suited for a systemless setting.

[Havard]

I agree, Bloodshadows isn't terribly suited for that. I dont really see the appeal of systemless settings anyway, unless they come with companion books that have the rules in them.

Havard

[Kalzazz]

Hmmm. I could see doing Bloodshadows in maybe GURPS, but thats it, I have a hard time imagining using say DnD or Earthdawn for it

[Grimace]

I think the only way it would work as a "systemless" setting would be if everything presented in it already existed in stats elsewhere in the system you were using. By presenting the stuff, you provide the "feel", but you don't provide the cold, hard numbers needed to make it work in a game. If you were using something like a diceless system, making it systemless might work. If you were using just about any other system, if you talk about a Nefarian Bloodsucker (made up...I don't know Bloodshadows enough to pull a real example) and give a good description to provide the "feel" of it, the GM is still left with having to come up with the stats for that Bloodsucker, and many GMs don't want to have to stat things out first. That was one of the purported downfalls of the 3 core rulebooks of D6...not enough stuff statted out.

Sure you might have an interesting sounding setting, and sure some GMs might be able to take the ball and run with it, but most people will look at it and go "this is neat but completely worthless without having stats". People are more inclined to convert from existing stats that come up with them whole-cloth. So, unless the system you use (let's take D6 as an example) has all of the things you present in the "systemless" setting (equipment, weapons, creatures, etc) you're faced with having to come up with the stats based on the description alone. That's admittedly not an easy thing to do.

So I don't think Bloodshadows would work as a "systemless" setting.

[Kansas Jim]

Green Ronin recently went systemless with its Freeport setting, which includes traditional fantasy elements and Lovecraftian horror, if they can adequately cover monsters and magic in such a way that it can be adopted into any system then I suppose Bloodshadows could work the same way. I have not seen any of the newer Freeport books though so don't know how successfully they pull it off.

[skeloric]

To be honest, this thread seems like a spinoff from this other thread (http://wegfanforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93)
The importance of a game system does NOT seem to be in dispute with all 10 people voting what is essentially a "cautious yes" vote or an "emphatically yes" vote.
People have yet chose either the "cautious no" or the "emphatically no".
Such folks that would be on the "no" side are those to whom a "systemless setting" would most appeal.

I have less and less time to spend on an RPG and I don't even work and have not since the economy flatlined back in 2004 and even I have no time to expend adapting some systemless setting.
I want the work to be already done and I want it to be easy to use and not take a lot of number crunching nor chart checking.
No system is as bad as using the D20 system which is what Freeport was previously.

[Stormchild]

The word systemless is rather misleading, that is why this discussion went into two parallel directions.
1) Generic setting. A setting that can be used with any other rule setting
2) Diceless rules. A rule system that concentrates on roleplaying instead on rolling dice. That is what the other thread is all about.

Bloodshadows can be both. The question is, how much would it change the game. As Bloodshadows was not popular at all this question seems moot. Still I ask myself how Bloodshadows is "meant" to be played. It has many different options:
- Pulp - fast paced action,
- Serie Noir - dark and cynic detective stories with lots of cool talk,
- Fantasy horror - the monster on the loose and players about to get it,
- Mystery horror - better known as Gothic Horror.

It was presented first as Masterbook setting using the Masterbook cards (much like the Torg cards). The cards and the rules set are best suited for a fast-paced game with lots of dice rolls (that is why it worked so good with Nile Empire). So the MB rules enhance the pulp feeling of Bloodshadows. In a diceless system this would change a lot and enhance the mystery aspect of the setting.

In order to present it as a generic setting, it has to be explained how the background is "meant" to be played (of course you can play anyway you want but how should players know it is what they want as long as it is not explained what it is meant to be).

The novels give no clue on that either as they are presenting the different options. In short: what would be the sales-pitch for Bloodshadows? As it stands today it is too confusing: a fast-paced Serie-Noir-Horror setting in a world of intrigue that is about to be plunged into a fantasy god-war.

[Kalzazz]

Actually, come to think of it, the Bloodshadows stuff probably could work systemless as well as it worked for D6 . . . . the D6 parts of the rulebook and the rulebook as a whole seemed rather sketchy (actually, I think that was a major reason I didnt try to run it), with small gear lists and relatively few monsters and spells. The spell part seemed most interesting, but really didnt go into enough details or examples for me to 'get' it

If I did run it, Id be torn between D6 and GURPS, I like D6 magic system, but, the Bloodshadows magic system seems sufficiently far far removed from D6 I dont think it would be really the same, and I like how GURPS handles guns far better

[Stormchild]

I like how GURPS handles guns far better

Just out of curiosity as I don't play Gurps but am always looking for good ideas, how does Gurps handle guns better?

[Kalzazz]

Well, this is just my opinion, but two things I particularly like in the GURPS treatment of guns

-Recoil to make a tradeoff between high powered and lower powered guns. In Star Wars for the most part there is little reason not to use highest powered handgun you can get your hands on, but in GURPS, the higher the power, the higher the recoil (adds penalties to accuracy), and thus people have to weigh 'how much does it hurt when I hit someone?' against 'how many times do I hit someone?'

And

-Blowthrough and wider damage range. In Star Wars, theres a narrow range of damages for guns, most doing 4d to 6d range. GURPS guns range from 2d to 7d type ranges. However, to go with that, have a concept called Blowthrough, where max damage from a gun is capped by enemy health. So, high powered guns are really great for hurting things with armor or really big things, but dont outright atomize weaker folks. Called shots or multiple shots are needed to take things down

Also, semiautos in GURPS can fire usually 3 times in a round as a normal action, so can put a lot more lead downrange (Im used to Star Wars players having their guys only shoot once per round due to not wanting to lower there defense rolls to much from multiaction penalties)

I also like how GURPS handles reloading, but thats a minor detail

There are some things I dislike, such as the range/size/speed table

[The Game Guy]

I agree, Bloodshadows isn't terribly suited for that. I dont really see the appeal of systemless settings anyway, unless they come with companion books that have the rules in them.

Havard

From the replys it looks like that a systemless setting is not something people want and I can see the problem with it.

I guess I look at the appeal for people who like a setting but wont buy a game because of the system.

For example, I have heard of many people say they think the RIFTS setting but wont play it because it uses the Palladium game system.

That's my line of though regarding systemless systems.

[skeloric]

Resorting to systemless would have me personally questioning the intelligence of the developers.
Too stupid to realize that they need a decent and concise "house system" of their very own?
Yeah, I'd start wondering at their RPG writing/gaming abilities in general.

[Grimace]

For example, I have heard of many people say they think the RIFTS setting but wont play it because it uses the Palladium game system.

That's my line of though regarding systemless systems.

I see what you're shooting for now. Rifts is one of those RPGs that *I* can personally say "The setting is awesome, the system is not." However, there are exceptions. Rifts has a very good premise. The ideas presented in the main book, and to some extent the ideas in some of the sourcebooks, are just really cool. But Rifts suffered from two things, IMO. First and foremost, it has a clunky system. I've watched people who LOVE the Palladium system run the game of Rifts and eventually have trouble making the system cover what is being done. Add in the SDC and MDC of Palladium, and you've got this behemouth of a system that lumbers along. Can it work? Yes. Does it work good? No. Not in my opinion.

The second problem Rifts suffered from is "power bloat". Each progressive book put out had something bigger, badder, nastier and more powerful. The Glitter Boy armor that was introduced in the original book as very powerful armor becomes a laughing joke by the time you're running around in Lone Star or Coalition War Campaign. Additionally, it seems Rifts got away from the "survival in a strange, post-apocolyptic world" and turned into "most awesomeness gunzzz!!!!!"

Now do I think Rifts would work in a systemless book? No. The ideas might be able to be presented, but as I mentioned before, without having a point of reference to base things in the book upon, you're left having to come up with everything on your own. Glitter Boy armor might be described, but you'd have no idea how powerful it was supposed to be without something to base it on. Likewise a Juicer might be considered "pumped up on the 'juice'" but how does that compare to a human, or a Crazy, or a techno wizard or a cyber knight? Descriptions can do really well at putting ideas into your head, but figuring out how things stack up against each other is another matter entirely. Without the stats provided by Palladium, no one has an idea of how good any of those things really are. So while I might not agree with the system, and while I feel the "power bloat" is rampant in Palladium, I can still use the stats in the Rifts book as a basis to stat out or convert to a system I prefer (D6). Taking all of those stats away and just giving me the fluff doesn't really help and actually makes my job harder. Converting or creating your own based on previously created stats is much easier than coming up with the stuff out of thin air.

[Kalzazz]

Well, the Difference between RIFTS and D6 Bloodshadows is that RIFTS is jammed chock full of widgets, critters and all manner of things with stats. D6 Bloodshadows has few monsters and few really different weapons, gear or spells. So, I think Bloodshadows would have a much better chance at being systemless

Then again, the lack of widgets, critters, and other things with stats is probably what kept me from using it, just didnt seem enough stuff I could directly use and I would have probably gotten lost trying to run it

[Stormchild]

There are lots of Masterbook Bloodshadows books out there and it is extremely easy to convert to D6. My problem is more the lack of background like geography, society, culture, history.

[imported_Magman]

Sorry don't mean to derail this thread, but can someone please explain a little more your concept of systemless?

Stormwind responded but I am not sure I fully understand.


1) Generic setting. A setting that can be used with any other rule setting
2) Diceless rules. A rule system that concentrates on roleplaying instead on rolling dice. That is what the other thread is all about.

Surely there has to be some type of die rolling to resolve conflicts and skill performed events? No ?

[Stormchild]

No, I did not explain the concept of systemless. I only wanted to show that diceless does not mean systemless (or ruleless) and that we are talking about two different things here: diceless and generic background but I'll try it anyway.

There are some systems that use other mechanics than dice to emulate the unknown and chance like a flip of a coin or cards, I even played a game where the outcome of everything that was uncertain could be voted upon by the players and they had coins to give away every time they voted and got coins when they received a favourable vote. I can't remember much about it and I think it was a fan project. But diceless doesn't mean ruleless as this example shows.

The idea of a systemless game system taken the farthest way (afaik) was "The Extraordinary Adventures of Baron Munchhausen" published by Hogshead Publishing. There the players take on the roles of Gentleman in the 18th century who come together over a fine glass of port to lie about (pardon: explain) their adventures. It is not an RPG as we know it but more a game of inventing stories (not to be confused with storytelling). But even this game has got some rules like that a gentleman never questions the truth of another gentleman's story or he has to duel him (there are rules for unbloody duels too, though Baron Munchhausen calls it duels for cowards - we would call it stone - paper - scissors).

Traditionally, when talking about systemless (or diceless) systems RPGamers think about storytelling systems that frown about rolling dice (too often) like vampyre (at least that is how it was presented, though it is seldom played very diceless). Meaning that players and GM try to advance the game rather through roleplaying than by rolling dice. But I think this is the way most GMs and their players try to play every game (and fail most of the time). I have not played much vampyre, so I am not the right person to talk about it, but as far as I remember, there are rules on when and how players can take over part of the GMs job and explain some details about the environment, but this could also have been a house rule of my GM then.

[Grimace]

From how I understand it, the definitions go like this:

Systemless: As it sounds. Lacking any system. It contains descriptions only of things. There are no stats of any type, just description. Is used to portray a setting and give a general "feel" of whatever the book is trying to portray. An example of something systemless is the description of something like Babylon 5, without attaching ANY stats for aliens, equipment, ships...anything. You get the idea of what Babylon 5 is and get descriptions of the races and characters, the details of the politics and even some examples of adventures you could have in the Babylon 5 universe.

Diceless: A game system that does not use dice to resolve conflicts/tasks. Usually with diceless there are still stats for things, but the way the stats work is different from a "normal" system that uses dice, because diceless systems obviously don't use dice. If you get a diceless system, you can end up with a setting, fully described, but you'll also have the characters, gear and whatnot "statted" to match the format that the diceless system uses. Just because something is diceless doesn't mean it doesn't have any rules.

So diceless IS a system. Systemless is without a system of any sort...just description.

[Stormchild]

Thanks Grimace, your description is better. I often hear the word systemless used as a synonym for diceless. So exchange the word systemless in my comment above by diceless in your mind and I hope it will be easier to understand what I was trying to say.

[imported_Magman]

Thanks to both of you. In my current state of mind here, I can't imagine this being a preferred method of play, rather than a dice rolling system. But I am sure people have their reasons to play such. Off hand from what I read here, I wouldn't like it. I need some dice rolling.

To get back on the subject since I steered it off to the left, I never played blood shadows so I can't give my opinion on it. I did recently purchase it though to look over. Just haven't had the time.

[Stormchild]

In my opinion it is nearly not playable without some major changes.
First of all, as I mentioned earlier, it has no clear setting.
A GM has to decide what the game du jour should be: serie noir with magic, fantasy with horror elements or horror with intrigue? These three settings do not mix quite well.
You basically have two arenas for gaming: the cities and the Wilderness and they too do not mix well.

The novels are an indicator of these statements:
Hell's Feast - in my opinion the best of them. A classic serie noir story (played originally by Robert Mitchum though I don't know the movie's name) adapted for a world with Unnaturals and Magic but leaning most heavily to Serie Noir. Situated entirely in the big city of Galitia (the New York of Bloodshadows). Serie Noir with magic.

Demon's Dream - featuring Jack Deacon, the Hero from Hell's Feast but more of a serial killer adaptation with lots of magic thrown in and also playing mostly in the big city. Horror with Intrigue only flavoured by Serie Noir.

The Fifth Horseman - now we are amid the Godwar. The end of the world is near as the title gives away. Pure Splatter Horror, could be placed anywhere. I don't remember this novel, have to read it again.

Blood of Tarian - a fantasy story, could be placed into any fantasy setting and situated nearly entirely in the Wilderness. A roadmovie on horseback with some western flair thrown in. Fantasy Horror.

For Serie Noir to work, I think you need some contact between the big cities. Serie Noir typically plays only in the big city but there is always the option of talent out of town and desperate people dreaming about hope in another city if they only could afford the fare. You also need news from the world just for flair and sometimes to further the adventure. Not to forget the big business. It doesn't work if there is no trade.

The other side of this coin is the Wilderness. It is presented as being too dangerous.

Magic is too commonplace. There simply is no need for most technical inventions that are a hailmark of Serie Noir as most things can be done with magic.

Last complaint: the Unnaturals. Too many, too commonplace. The implications are not thought through as it is with magic.

[Kalzazz]

Ah. Ive never encounted the Masterbook version, just the small D6 version

I may try to look for it

[Stormchild]

After the rantings about the problems, here are my 2 cent on how to solve them:

Magic: most people can only use cantrips. Spells cannot been foused except in expensive and fragile crystals. Elementals are difficult to control. Magicians are few and over-paid experts.

Wilderness: Most of the surroundings of the cities and the trade routes are cleared of Unnaturals by the Wilderness patrols. The Unnaturals should be a horror element and not a fantasy element. You should not stumble on them wherever you go, instead they should lurk and wait for the unwary.

Trade: I borrowed the idea of the thundertrain from World of Aden and there are also well-traveled roads that are patrolled by the wilderness guard and enchanted with a divination spell to give warnings of Unnaturals. The gate between Galitia and Selastos (as mentioned in the sourcebooks) is no real solution as it is only known to a select few.

Press and Communication: The radio crystals are not only used for live music and commercials but also for communication between cities.

This leads to more implications: the world is known to the ordinary people and needs to be fleshed out (beginning with geography and the placement of the cities). The cantrips need to be developed. I thought about using minor elementals that are too dumb and to weak to fulfill more than simple tasks. But they are good in doing what they have learned like making coffee.

And one final rant: where is prohibition a staple of Serie Noir?

[Stormchild]

Yes, the Masterbook version has got much more information. No wonder, considering there are 8 sourcebooks (on my shelf, I am not sure if I have got everything). But I love the D6 Locations.

[skeloric]

Key words that I firmly believe need to be evoked in Bloodshadows:
"Post-WW1" (The "Godwar" is nothing more than our own WW1 but with fantastical elements.)

"depression thirties" (Look to Doc Savage novels and newsreels. This is the bedrock being emulated and homaged.)

"Fantasy Noir" (which is actually a conflation of terms in use but says it better, though perhaps still requiring some explanation...)

This is the core of Marl:
It is a fantasy world that has gone through an event uncannily like that of WW1 and they are dwelling in that eerie landscape where the "War to end all wars" begins to weave its way inexorably towards the SECOND world war.

In a sense, this is a Harry Turtledove Alternate History Epic but without Harry Turtledove's excellent ability to really EXPLAIN where we are and what it means to us.

[Stormchild]

Key words that I firmly believe need to be evoked in Bloodshadows:
"Post-WW1" (The "Godwar" is nothing more than our own WW1 but with fantastical elements.)

This would be the best but isn't done (or couldn't be done as Bloodshadows was presented). The Godwar is centuries back. The world has already recovered. So the Bloodshadows feeling should be more like around 1910 than in the 20s (not meaning that I want it to be done that way). Why is it a cynical depressed time like in Serie Noir? On the contrary, the world of Bloodshadows is developing for the better. It should be great times. Most people even don't know that the next Godwar is brewing.


"depression thirties" (Look to Doc Savage novels and newsreels. This is the bedrock being emulated and homaged.)

Yes, that could help set the tone. But there is no reason for depression in the presented material. On the contrary. Though economics is largely left out of the background material it looks as if the economy is doing quite well.


"Fantasy Noir" (which is actually a conflation of terms in use but says it better, though perhaps still requiring some explanation...)

Sorry, but I don't understand what this term could mean, as I didn't understand what tone Bloodshadows should have. Fantasy Noir just is another way to say "the Bloodshadows setting"


This is the core of Marl:
It is a fantasy world that has gone through an event uncannily like that of WW1 and they are dwelling in that eerie landscape where the "War to end all wars" begins to weave its way inexorably towards the SECOND world war.

I rather would look at Godwar I as the 30year war which killed a much higher percentage of inhabitants in a given country (here germany) than any other war, even WWII and left germany in ruins. 15 years after WWI germany was back as a major power, 10 years after WWII germany was back as a major economic power (with lots of help of the US of course) but it took the erstwhile leading nation of medieval europe at least 100 years to recover from the 30year war.
It could also be seen as the Hun invasion which resulted indirectly in the fall of Rome and the complete collapse of the western roman empire.


In a sense, this is a Harry Turtledove Alternate History Epic but without Harry Turtledove's excellent ability to really EXPLAIN where we are and what it means to us.

Don't know this. What is it about?

[The Game Guy]

Yes, the Masterbook version has got much more information. No wonder, considering there are 8 sourcebooks (on my shelf, I am not sure if I have got everything). But I love the D6 Locations.

So they did a masterbook version AND a classic D6 version of Bloodshadows?

[Kalzazz]

Theres a D6 Locations book?

[imported_Magman]

Sorry about the post I deleted. Wrote a reply before I did the examining. As it stands I was correct- If you are referring to the D6 Adventure Locations, yes it exist.

[skeloric]

"Fantasy Noir" (which is actually a conflation of terms in use but says it better, though perhaps still requiring some explanation...)


Sorry, but I don't understand what this term could mean, as I didn't understand what tone Bloodshadows should have. Fantasy Noir just is another way to say "the Bloodshadows setting"


Well, not quite.
Noir -- or as you put it Serie Noir -- has a strong mood of moral ambiguity, which places it in opposition with "Pulp" which sort of precedes it in which good and evil are starkly defined and immovable.
Fantasy is in its most general sense "evoking elements of things not real".
We could picture dwarves and elves and fairies, but that is more the "fairy tale" element though most to all fantasy is in nature based upon fairy tales.
So the combination can refer to a lot more, the French film "City of Lost Children" is rather skirting the edge of Fantasy Noir.
Though it isn't truthfully "New Fantasy" any more than Noir is "New".
But overall, there is a dark and twisted sense of Noir that filters through a Fantasy framework.
I'm still missing most of my examples as its been a long time since I first coined the term and I wasn't really ready to explain it again.



This is the core of Marl:
It is a fantasy world that has gone through an event uncannily like that of WW1 and they are dwelling in that eerie landscape where the "War to end all wars" begins to weave its way inexorably towards the SECOND world war.




I rather would look at Godwar I as the 30 year war which killed a much higher percentage of inhabitants in a given country (here germany) than any other war, even WWII and left germany in ruins. 15 years after WWI germany was back as a major power, 10 years after WWII germany was back as a major economic power (with lots of help of the US of course) but it took the erstwhile leading nation of medieval europe at least 100 years to recover from the 30year war.
It could also be seen as the Hun invasion which resulted indirectly in the fall of Rome and the complete collapse of the western roman empire.



While it might have been those things if it had been written in Europe, but in American knowledge/sense of history usually requires that the history actually impact America.
As such, the parallels -- rightly or wrongly -- are a world recovering after a world war like that of the first world war.
Bu rather more like a World War One that lasted long enough to go Nuclear as much of the wilderness seems to suggest.



In a sense, this is a Harry Turtledove Alternate History Epic but without Harry Turtledove's excellent ability to really EXPLAIN where we are and what it means to us.


Don't know this. What is it about?

It isn't one thing but dozens.
Harry Turtledove writes a series that begins with machine guns being sold to the American South which enables the south to win the Civil War. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guns_of_the_South)


Then he wrote "How Few Remain" (which I erroneously believed to be a sequel to "Guns of the South") in which the North tried to once again unify the nation by force and failed again.
Then we enter World War One and the divided nation entires on separate sides and goes to war with each other again and it leads all the way into (and through actually) World War Two, I believe.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline-191)

He also writes a World War Two epic where the war is derailed by an extraterrestrial invasion to conquer the Earth and how the enemy nations must try to unite long enough to defeat the invaders.
This I actually own all seven books to. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosev_timeline)
And then discover that I missed book 8 which was recently published.

He writes a LOT of this stuff.
This is where Marl is, this what they were attempting to emulate.
But with people so uncertain as to the era and real world events being mirrored in Marl, I'd say the designers failed.

[Stormchild]

Thank you for the links. Looks interesting, I will have to look into those books.

On the genre name. I have long thought about it and still don't know what to think about it. I think names are important, especially as they tend to stick, so it better be a good one. But I am not sure if fantasy noir hits it.

As I understand your post you believe Serie Noir means New Serial. In fact it is a phrase coined for a line of detective movies of the 1940s to 1950 and the novels they where based on. But I have to admit, I don't know much about the novels.

The name was coined by the french (often also called film noir or noir) to reflect the noir (dark) tone of the movies both in picture language as in character tone. A staple of these movies is also that the characters who where often cynical and hardboiled where characterised more deeply than in former detective movies and novels. Today this is normal even for the simplest of detective movies but it was new then.

On the other hand, fantasy, though it has lots of subgenres is normally looking on the heroic side of the good characters and on the abominable side of the bad. The heroes are larger than life there. So I don't think this is what Bloodshadows is about. It uses fantasy creatures as plot devices not as part of the tone. The tone is clearly set on noir, except for the novel "Blood of Tarian" which clearly is a fantasy novel. But I think fantasy and noir as settings contradict each other.

A story is always centered around the main characters be it the good or the bad, the background is exchangeable. Though I am not sure if I found the right words to explain why I am uncomfortable with the phrase Fantasy Noir I would be more inclined to call it something else, like maybe Magic Noir or Noir Horror.

[skeloric]

Maybe Occult Noir perhaps?
Occult in theory is supposed to represent that which is "hidden" (in a magical sense) rather than openly displayed, but it has come to represent the darker side of magic and the fantastical in a general sense these days.

[Stormchild]

Occult noir is a great name. It shows the merits of both parts of the setting.

[The Game Guy]

Occult noir is a great name. It shows the merits of both parts of the setting.

I agree, Occult Noir is a grea name and as you say shows the meritis of the setting.

[HoracePeabody]

I obviously can't say whether it'd be successful as a product, but I've used Bloodshadows as "systemless" with success. In days of old, it was pretty common to fuse settings with other systems and some of us have yet to stop. I ran a loose Bloodshadows campaign, using TSR's Gangbusters....which seemed a natural fit to me. I ended up using the Unnaturals book, far more than the main Bloodshadows book itself though...

[Stormchild]

Bloodshadows as a systemless setting? Isn't that just Masterbook? Oops, don't say this too loud as general consensus here is Masterbook sucks (an opinion I dissent, though). ;)

[Whill]

Bloodshadows as a systemless setting? Isn't that just Masterbook? Oops, don't say this too loud as general consensus here is Masterbook sucks (an opinion I dissent, though). ;)

That's ok, Stormchild. We still like you regardless of your love of Masterbook. :cool:

[Stormchild]

Thank you, I like you to like me. Aw, I haven't been that nice for centuries, Internet world laws are getting to me. Hope I don't disconnect from the world laws of the cynical 90s. :eek:

[The Game Guy]

Yep, not a masterbook fan myself but I wont say that it sucks.

[skeloric]

Masterbook's big flaw was in that it needed another year of playtesting and polishing -- and maybe a decent "afterTORG" supplement.

[Whill]

So they did a masterbook version AND a classic D6 version of Bloodshadows?

It was a Masterbook setting, and then a D6 Adventure worldbook. I only have the D6 book though.


Masterbook's big flaw was in that it needed another year of playtesting and polishing -- and maybe a decent "afterTORG" supplement.

I thought Shatterzone was the "afterTORG"? And then that system got further developed into Masterbook?

[skeloric]

I thought Shatterzone was the "afterTORG"? And then that system got further developed into Masterbook?
I meant as a setting book rather than as the evolution of the system.
The Wars End module offered about 5 to 6 pages of conversion to Masterbook and presented the aftermath of the TORG setting as a potential Masterbook setting, complete with portions of the Earth with burned in aspects of the invading foreign Cosms in one sidebar example as I recall.
While it might have been ignored as "noncanonical" in the future, such a supplement (64 pages? 128 pages?) might have been of some use.

Still wouldn't have helped when the strangely parasitic Shoe Company of DOOM dragged WEG down into nonexistence, but such a book would have been of some small help.

[ngarrang]

The whole tone of Bloodshadows...I think it would work very well with the Basic Roleplaying System.

[The Game Guy]

It was a Masterbook setting, and then a D6 Adventure worldbook. I only have the D6 book though.

Wow, you learn something new every day. I had no idea that they had done that.

Was it a true blue D6 version or just a duel stat kind of thing?

[Whill]

Wow, you learn something new every day. I had no idea that they had done that.

Was it a true blue D6 version or just a duel stat kind of thing?

Since I don't have the Masterbook version, I don't know if it was dual statted or not. My guess is no, but I don't know for sure.

The D6 version was part of Eric's Purgatory line for D6 Adventure, so it definitely does not have any Masterbook rules in it. (I think it's safe to say Masterbook is dead for good.)

[hellsreach]

Since I don't have the Masterbook version, I don't know if it was dual statted or not. My guess is no, but I don't know for sure.

The D6 version was part of Eric's Purgatory line for D6 Adventure, so it definitely does not have any Masterbook rules in it. (I think it's safe to say Masterbook is dead for good.)

There has not been any dual stated Bloodshadows material. The earlier was Masterbook only, the later D6 only and while I hate to say anything is ever "dead," in my most grand hopes and plans whereby everything I every wanted to be produced would be and would be profitable to all, Masterbook has not once appeared on that list.

[The Game Guy]

There has not been any dual stated Bloodshadows material. The earlier was Masterbook only, the later D6 only and while I hate to say anything is ever "dead," in my most grand hopes and plans whereby everything I every wanted to be produced would be and would be profitable to all, Masterbook has not once appeared on that list.

Since taking over you haven't done anything masterbook have you? You have only done new D6 if I am correct.

[Havard]

Since taking over you haven't done anything masterbook have you? You have only done new D6 if I am correct.

As a MasterBook fan, I am of the view that TORG2.0 would also have been considered MasterBook 2, even if that name wouldnt have appeared anywhere. Bloodshadows could easily have been made into a TORG cosm.

As a separate Bloodshadows line, I don't see any reason to make it systemless. D6 is probably the best way to go. Personally I would have given the setting an overhaul though. I would have liked to see either Bloodshadows: Earth, a setting where the same concepts exist, but on our planet, or Bloodshadows:Fantasy, set on Marl, but during the first Godwar. As it stands now, Bloodshadows tries to incorporate too many things and that makes it hard to perceive what the setting is really about.

Havard

[Whill]

Bloodshadows could easily have been made into a TORG cosm.

And it still couild be TORG 2.0 cosm.

[The Game Guy]

And it still couild be TORG 2.0 cosm.

I am not sure how Eric feels about Bloodshadows and/or making it into a cosm.

From the vibe I get he doesnt seem to care for it (but I could be wrong, I dont think I have ever outright asked him his feelings on it).

[Havard]

I am not sure how Eric feels about Bloodshadows and/or making it into a cosm.

From the vibe I get he doesnt seem to care for it (but I could be wrong, I dont think I have ever outright asked him his feelings on it).

My understanding is that Eric judges Bloodshadows from its lack of success under the D6 regime. Which probably makes sense. The brand itself doesnt warrant too many sales. That doesn't mean reusing some of the material in some form or other wouldnt be cost efficient...

Havard

[The Game Guy]

My understanding is that Eric judges Bloodshadows from its lack of success under the D6 regime. Which probably makes sense. The brand itself doesnt warrant too many sales. That doesn't mean reusing some of the material in some form or other wouldnt be cost efficient...

Havard

Yeah, that's true. If you have it use it.

However I think there are some elements in bloodshadows that are similar to elements in the Orrosh (sp) Cosm. I wonder how he would feel about having similar cosms?

[Havard]

Yeah, that's true. If you have it use it.

However I think there are some elements in bloodshadows that are similar to elements in the Orrosh (sp) Cosm. I wonder how he would feel about having similar cosms?

Bloodshadows is Noir with Magic, while Orrosh is Victorian Horror. It should be fairly easy to distinguish between them. I can see how toning down some of the horror features of some of the non-humans of Bloodshadows, but as it is Noir, it needs to be somewhat dark.

Havard

[kellhound]

Mixed zone Nile-Orrorsh, courtesy of pharaoh Mobius? :p

[Havard]

Mixed zone Nile-Orrorsh, courtesy of pharaoh Mobius? :p

That would be quite close, but there's a big difference between Pulp and Noir. I think a Nile/Orrosh mixed zone migh appear more similar to the movie Van Helsing. :cool:

Havard

[The Game Guy]

Bloodshadows is Noir with Magic, while Orrosh is Victorian Horror. It should be fairly easy to distinguish between them. I can see how toning down some of the horror features of some of the non-humans of Bloodshadows, but as it is Noir, it needs to be somewhat dark.

Havard

I guess I see your point. They are different enough where it could work