[Tinkering] Initiative and DR

[petespahn]

Okay, so for Stormrift I was looking to streamline combat a little.

Right now, for every attack there is a(n):
initiative roll
attack/action roll
*dodge/parry roll (optional)
damage roll
damage resistance roll

That's 4-5 steps for every person which seems excessive.

What would be the pitfalls of combining initiative with the attack/action roll?

So, two people shooting at each other would both roll their firearms skill to see who shoots first. Lets say they both hit. Unless the first character hit was incapacitated or killed, any wound penalties would just start next round.

or

An alien is shooting at a human climbing a wall. The alien rolls firearms; the human rolls climbing. If the human rolls higher, he makes it over the wall and the alien has no target to shoot.

Stormrift is going to contain a lot of combat and action, so I just want to ensure it runs as smoothly and quickly as possible. This mod takes the focus off of overloading combat skills and should add a little diversity among characters.

I was also looking to streamline the damage roll/damage resistance roll (maybe by making damage resistance be a fixed number based on armor/strength) but I don't want to alter the system so much that it loses its flavor.

Any thoughts? Anyone have any other mods they can point me to (other than group initiative which I do not like)?

Pete

[asmkm22]

A rule like that would really wreck some havoc on the game, and frustrate the players quite a bit.

What if you don't want to go first, but still want to use a skill that is high enough that will likely make you?

What if you have 2 people firing at the guy climbing the wall, and the first one kills him? Is the second person forced to fire at the dead body or can he switch targets? If he can switch targets, how is his "initiative" roll compared to his new target?

A rule like that would only bog combat down, even assuming you took the time to rewrite combat rules to answer questions like these.

A better solution would be to have initiative rolled once at the beginning of combat, and let the order stay the same until the end of it.



Right now, for every attack there is a(n):
initiative roll
attack/action roll
*dodge/parry roll (optional)
damage roll
damage resistance roll

That's 4-5 steps for every person which seems excessive.

Once initiative is determined, it's not really all that bad. There will be either 2 or 4 rolls, depending on if the attack hit, and the rolls are being handled by two different people. So at most, any given player would be making two rolls; one to hit, and one to damage.

Each player can roll at the same time, so it's not even a very slow process.

[Grimace]

I think you *could* do it by combining the attack and intiative rolls, but like asmkm22 mentions, you could end up with some strangely conflicting problems by doing that. If you're willing to work through all of those bugs, rewrite several points in combat (like the changing targets and such), and assuming it works in practice, then go for it.

I'm of the mind, and this is how I've done it for years, of only rolling initiative once in combat and leaving it at that. If something major happens to disrupt the potential for initiative order (such as more people showing up in the combat) then you can re-roll, but otherwise what's rolled at the beginning of combat stays for the whole combat. That completely dispenses with a bunch of rolls each round.

Second, I know there are rules for outright not making resistance rolls unless the target is wearing armor. So if Joe with no armor gets hit, he just takes damage depending on what is rolled for damage. It makes combat more deadly, and armor much more sought after, but it does reduce the rolls a bit. You could even dispense with the armor rolls when hit if you convert the armor dice into a static number that simply gets reduced from before any real damage is done to the person.

You'll never be able to get rid of attack/action and damage rolls, though. It's part of the game. Really, though, unless you're running 8+ players or playing for an extremely short amount of time (2 hours or less), I don't think there's much need to be trimming things so substantially. Remember what an RPG is. Part Roleplaying and part Game. Don't nix too much from the game just to pack in more roleplaying...you start to lose the flavor of the game.

[Kalzazz]

I like to make init more meaningful and give bonuses to faster people, so one rule I use (borrowed from Shadowrun) is to give 1 free action for every 10 you roll

This makes init rolls much more important and thus, less a waste of time

[petespahn]

Hi guys,

Comments interspersed below.


A rule like that would really wreck some havoc on the game, and frustrate the players quite a bit.

What if you don't want to go first, but still want to use a skill that is high enough that will likely make you?

You can always withhold your action.



What if you have 2 people firing at the guy climbing the wall, and the first one kills him? Is the second person forced to fire at the dead body or can he switch targets? If he can switch targets, how is his "initiative" roll compared to his new target?




A better solution would be to have initiative rolled once at the beginning of combat, and let the order stay the same until the end of it.

I don't care for that as it's too static. You can get hosed by a bad roll and then be stuck with it the rest of the combat.



Once initiative is determined, it's not really all that bad. There will be either 2 or 4 rolls, depending on if the attack hit, and the rolls are being handled by two different people. So at most, any given player would be making two rolls; one to hit, and one to damage.

I guess our games run a little differently. PCs roll initiative each round, then almost always dodge. If they get hit, they roll strength to resist (this is Star Wars WEG). Then they roll to attack, and then damage if they hit.

I've run it for years and it hasn't been a problem because we're so familiar with the system, but I've tried bringing non-gamers in and the number of rolls each round was a problem for some (they wanted to play movie Star Wars and all that dice rolling detracted a bit from the experience).



Second, I know there are rules for outright not making resistance rolls unless the target is wearing armor. So if Joe with no armor gets hit, he just takes damage depending on what is rolled for damage. It makes combat more deadly, and armor much more sought after, but it does reduce the rolls a bit. You could even dispense with the armor rolls when hit if you convert the armor dice into a static number that simply gets reduced from before any real damage is done to the person.

That's what I'm sort of leaning toward - a fixed number for armor and maybe even for Strength that shows you how much damage you can absorb. You can still spend character points to augment this number and a Fate point spent that round would grant you even more bonuses.



You'll never be able to get rid of attack/action and damage rolls, though.
No, no, I'd never want to get rid of attack/action rolls. It wouldn't be much fun without them. I'd just like to streamline the process a bit to make things run quicker. Fixed damage resistance might help alleviate some of the problems. I'll have to test it out.


I like to make init more meaningful and give bonuses to faster people, so one rule I use (borrowed from Shadowrun) is to give 1 free action for every 10 you roll

That's a pretty neat house rule.

Thanks everyone!

[Rerun941]

My old SWd6 GM had come up with the following house rule:

1. All combatants roll Perception for initiative. (same initiative for the entire combat scene.)
2. In order from lowest to highest (least perceptive to most perceptive), players (and GM for the NPCs) declare actions (including dodges).
3. Once everyone has declared what their characters are going to do, everyone rolls their actions and records the result.
4. All actions occur in order from highest to lowest (most skilled to least skilled).
5. Rinse and repeat for second actions in that same round (go back to step3).

6. Go back to step 2 for the next combat round.

Commentary: by ordering the declaration of actions, more peceptive charcters get better "situational awareness" The PC sees Mook1 aiming at his buddy or aiming at him and can react better.

However, by having a better blaster skill, a PC can get his shot off first. (No need for special fast-draw rules, the higher skill result hits first.)

It's not perfect, but it seemed to work well for our group. We always had problems, like folks mentioned, with all targets being dead before a PC got to act.

Want to know what others are doing before you decide what you're going to do? get more perception.
Want to guarantee that your shot will hit the bad guy before his shot hits you? improve your blaster skill.

[petespahn]

Well, the fact that initiative/combat seems to be houseruled a lot leads me to believe it could use a revision.

So, the two options that present themselves are:
1. Leave the system "as is" to help facilitate people using their own house rules.
2. Revamp the parts of the system I don't like and hope it catches on like Pathfinder or even True20 did with d20.

#1 is the safest bet for a commercial publisher. #2 has the most potential for making a big splash--if you get it right.

Hmmmn. . .

[asmkm22]

OpenD6 will make it very easy to revamp rules. I'm just not sure initiative is one that really needs it. Good luck though.

[petespahn]

OpenD6 will make it very easy to revamp rules. I'm just not sure initiative is one that really needs it. Good luck though.

Thanks!

I can't think of any other rules that I'd tinker with so I'll be using the core rules for the rest of the game. In Star Wars, Force powers needed a bit of houseruling, but the Metaphysics works a lot smoother. Combat is the only place games seemed to slow down, and that was because you were usually making about 5 rolls per attack. It just seemed excessive, even though it did create a bit of tension, rolling for damage resistance after a particularly high damage roll. We'll see.

[Kalzazz]

Ive also rather liked Earthdawn's often init oriented mechanics, Ive pondered trying to work that into D6

[JusticeZero]

I don't care for that as it's too static. You can get hosed by a bad roll and then be stuck with it the rest of the combat.
Not really; initiative matters exactly once; when combat starts. After everyone has gone, the initiative order is a ring with no top or bottom; it's a circle. If your initiative was "bad", i.e. you go at the "bottom" of the order? That's OK, from now on you get to go before anyone else gets a chance to! You go so early that the fight started after your action.

[Cryonic]

A static initiative is still not really a good thing as one bad roll and most of the enemies go before you in the fight. Especially if the GM rolls for groups of bad guys.

[mbentley]

And in D6 you can spend Character Points to be able to roll again and add it to you Init. So a PC can have some control over their Init, even in a roll once situation.

Unless I'm mistaken, which I often am.

[JusticeZero]

A static initiative is still not really a good thing as one bad roll and most of the enemies go before you in the fight. Especially if the GM rolls for groups of bad guys.
Which means that you go before any of your allies! That can really be helpful! And if not, hold your action off until you are where you want to be.

[petespahn]

Which means that you go before any of your allies! That can really be helpful! And if not, hold your action off until you are where you want to be.

I think what Cryonic was saying is that with static initiative (one roll at the beginning of combat), if you roll badly once at the beginning of combat and you're fighting say three people, you might not make it to the end of the round, much less the end of successive rounds, or if you do, you might have accumulated a Wound level before you even get to act which hinders you even more.

what I'm saying is that by using say firearms skill for initiative in a firefight, it more accurately reflects who the better shooter is (assuming no one is "surprised"). Come to think of it, I wonder what the rationale for using Perception for initiative was in the first place. What does how perceptive I am have to do with how fast and accurately I fire my weapon?


And in D6 you can spend Character Points to be able to roll again and add it to you Init. So a PC can have some control over their Init, even in a roll once situation.

I don't think we allowed that. Either it never came up, or no one thought to do it which is odd.



Unless I'm mistaken, which I often am.
I feel like adding that every time I make a post. Maybe I should put it in my sig. :)

[Cryonic]

what I'm saying is that by using say firearms skill for initiative in a firefight, it more accurately reflects who the better shooter is (assuming no one is "surprised"). Come to think of it, I wonder what the rationale for using Perception for initiative was in the first place. What does how perceptive I am have to do with how fast and accurately I fire my weapon?

You can't shoot what you can't perceive. Your marksmanship skill determines how good you are with the gun. Your perception determines whether or not you are able to be aware of the threat to begin with. You can be the best marksman in the world and still be taken down by something you failed to perceive. Plus, how do you handle someone wanting to take multiple actions that each use different skills if their init is based on the given skill?

[petespahn]

You can't shoot what you can't perceive. Your marksmanship skill determines how good you are with the gun. Your perception determines whether or not you are able to be aware of the threat to begin with. You can be the best marksman in the world and still be taken down by something you failed to perceive.
We're not talking about surprise here - obviously if you ambush someone the rules are different. But if we're standing in front of one another firing weapons at each other round after round, how is that based on perception and not marksmanship? This is assuming of course that in heroic RPG-land you're not ducking for cover and firing over your shoulder as most people would do in real life. :)



Plus, how do you handle someone wanting to take multiple actions that each use different skills if their init is based on the given skill?
IIRC, second actions take place after everyone has had their first action (is that correct? can't recall if that's the way the system is written or if that's just the way we played it).

Off the top of my head (without any testing or having the rules in front of me) you'd handle it the same way as normal, -1D for every action.

You'd use the skill for whatever action you were attempting first, so if you were shooting at someone and then running away you'd roll firearms at -1D. If you were running away and shooting, you'd roll running first at -1D.

[Cryonic]

We're not talking about surprise here - obviously if you ambush someone the rules are different. But if we're standing in front of one another firing weapons at each other round after round, how is that based on perception and not marksmanship? This is assuming of course that in heroic RPG-land you're not ducking for cover and firing over your shoulder as most people would do in real life. :)

Not necessarily surprise.


IIRC, second actions take place after everyone has had their first action (is that correct? can't recall if that's the way the system is written or if that's just the way we played it).

Off the top of my head (without any testing or having the rules in front of me) you'd handle it the same way as normal, -1D for every action.

You'd use the skill for whatever action you were attempting first, so if you were shooting at someone and then running away you'd roll firearms at -1D. If you were running away and shooting, you'd roll running first at -1D.

Yes, but what do you roll to determine when you take that second action if it is a different skill from the first. All the skills do is determine how well you do the task. Your perception determines When you do the task. Of course this is all cinematic... what if you want to hurry your actions... should you get a bonus to Per and a penalty to all subsequent skill dice?

[petespahn]

Not necessarily surprise.

??? What then?



Yes, but what do you roll to determine when you take that second action if it is a different skill from the first.
What do you normally roll? We always played second actions came after everyone had made their first action, in the same initiative order. I never had anyone make a second initiative roll for a second action in the same turn.



All the skills do is determine how well you do the task.

Why is that, though? Why can't skill be related to initiative? If I have mechanic 4D and you have mechanic 1D won't I usually be able to figure out why the engine won't start before you do?



Your perception determines When you do the task. Of course this is all cinematic... what if you want to hurry your actions... should you get a bonus to Per and a penalty to all subsequent skill dice?
How does D6 normally handle hurried actions?

[Cryonic]

What do you normally roll? We always played second actions came after everyone had made their first action, in the same initiative order. I never had anyone make a second initiative roll for a second action in the same turn.

If you use Perception for Init, then for that turn/round/whatever you want to call it, then you use that number for all your actions. But you were talking about using other skills to determine initiative. Hence my asking what one would use to determine order from multiactions if not perception? Would the roll you used from Marksmanship for init also be used to determine the order that you do your movement?


Why is that, though? Why can't skill be related to initiative? If I have mechanic 4D and you have mechanic 1D won't I usually be able to figure out why the engine won't start before you do?

Ahh, but that isn't initiative. That is skill vs difficulty. The chance of rolling 4D and getting 10 is far greater than rolling 1D and getting 10. So, you will complete the task sooner more often than the less skilled. But that isn't something you'd be able to do in a single round.


How does D6 normally handle hurried actions?

As it turns out, that is exactly how one "hurries" in D6. Take dice away from the skills to increase Per. So, in that way your more skilled marksman can shoot sooner. But it applies to all skills rolled that round. (D6 Adventure, Combat Options, pg. 69, "Quick Draw")

[petespahn]

If you use Perception for Init, then for that turn/round/whatever you want to call it, then you use that number for all your actions. But you were talking about using other skills to determine initiative. Hence my asking what one would use to determine order from multiactions if not perception? Would the roll you used from Marksmanship for init also be used to determine the order that you do your movement?

Yes, for ease of play and because it makes sense. If multiactions are handled the way I think they are handled--with everyone taking their first action in order of initiative and then everyone taking their second and subsequent actions in order of initiative after everyone has had their first turn--then it really doesn't matter unless I'm missing something crucial (feel free to post a detailed example).




Ahh, but that isn't initiative. That is skill vs difficulty. The chance of rolling 4D and getting 10 is far greater than rolling 1D and getting 10. So, you will complete the task sooner more often than the less skilled. But that isn't something you'd be able to do in a single round.

Okay, well I was trying to get away from pure combat examples, but if we're shooting at each other and we know we're shooting at each other and I have 5D in firearms and you have 1D in firearms, shouldn't I go first? Why would your 4D in perception vs my 2D in perception make any difference? We've both perceived and are reacting to the threat.

I guess arguments can be made from either side, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree here as we both feel comfortable with our own way of handling init. That's why "house rules" don't work for every house. ;)

[Rerun941]

Even in good ole DnD, initiative counted for the entire combat sequence. If you rolled badly, you went last. It's just the nature of the beast.

Bad rolls = $#!+ outta luck *shrug*

[Rerun941]

Okay, well I was trying to get away from pure combat examples, but if we're shooting at each other and we know we're shooting at each other and I have 5D in firearms and you have 1D in firearms, shouldn't I go first? Why would your 4D in perception vs my 2D in perception make any difference? We've both perceived and are reacting to the threat.

I guess arguments can be made from either side, so we'll probably just have to agree to disagree here as we both feel comfortable with our own way of handling init. That's why "house rules" don't work for every house. ;)

That's what I was getting at with my house rules. The character with the higher perception may see it coming first and be able to declare a reaction. But the character with the higher firearms skill will have a better chance of getting his shot off first.

so you have a "Declare" phase and an "Action" phase... Initiative (Perception) determines what your declare order is, and then your actions (skills) determine what order the actions happen.

e.g. Mook1 and Mook2 encounter PC1 and PC2 at short range with blasters drawn.
Roll Initiative (Perception):
Mook1 = 5, PC1 = 9, Mook2 = 10, PC2 = 14
Mook1 declares he's taking two actions, first action is to shoot at PC1
PC1 sees that Mook1 is taking aim at him and declares a full dodge
Mook2 sees the above and decides to take a single action to shoot at PC2
PC2 sees all of the above and decides to dodge and shoot at Mook2

Roll Actions:
PC2 dodge = 10; shot at Mook2 = 15 (both at -1D MAP)
PC1 full dodge = 16 + range
Mook2 shot = 12
Mook1 shot = 15 (at -1D MAP due to 2 actions, one action available still)

So what happened?
Mook1 and PC2's shots went off simultaneously on 15.
Mook1 missed PC1 due to his full dodge.
PC2 hit Mook2 because he didn't dodge and only had to beat the range difficulty.
Mook2 rolls vs damage and if he can shrug it off, he can keep his shot which will hit PC2 because his 12 beat PC2's dodge of 10. If Mook2 takes damage, he loses his shot.
After all that, Mook1 can declare his second action. Once that is resolved, begin round 2 declaration phase with the same initiative scores from above.

[Kalzazz]

Ive always used, roll every round, then everyone's actions resolve in the order of init, all at once on said persons init

If people get the same init, all actions resolve simultaneously

However, Ive at times really wanted to try a system where all actions always resolve simultaneously

Everyone writes down actions, actions are then revealed at same time, everything resolves simultaneously, with no init

[Rerun941]

Well, that's the beauty of the d6 system. Infinitely tweakable, ya just gotta find what works for you. :)

[Kalzazz]

Indeed

Of course, if I wanted to go back to the ADnD method of 'each side rolls 1d10, lowest goes first' my players would kill me

[petespahn]

Of course, if I wanted to go back to the ADnD method of 'each side rolls 1d10, lowest goes first' my players would kill me
I remember it being 1d6, but yes, mine would too!

[JusticeZero]

..if we're shooting at each other and we know we're shooting at each other and I have 5D in firearms and you have 1D in firearms, shouldn't I go first? Why would your 4D in perception vs my 2D in perception make any difference?

As it turns out.. how one "hurries" in D6 [is to] take dice away from the skills to increase Per. So, in that way your more skilled marksman can shoot sooner. But it applies to all skills rolled that round. (D6 Adventure, Combat Options, pg. 69, "Quick Draw")
Thus, if you have 5D of Firearms and you want to get the jump on the less skilled character, then burn some of your dice up and use them to add to your Perception, and you can still perforate the guy with the dice you have left over; you can spare them, your skill is high enough; you don't NEED all 5D to hit a guy who hasn't had a chance to raise an active defence.

[asmkm22]

Ive always used, roll every round, then everyone's actions resolve in the order of init, all at once on said persons init

If people get the same init, all actions resolve simultaneously

However, Ive at times really wanted to try a system where all actions always resolve simultaneously

Everyone writes down actions, actions are then revealed at same time, everything resolves simultaneously, with no init

I tried something like that for a few games. It was an epic fail.

Writing down your action slowed the process down significantly. The realism starts to break down when you have more guys attacking the same target than is physically possible (such as 5 people all trying to punch the same guy in a doorway).

We basically found we'd have to write a bunch of secondary rules to compensate for the broken or outlandish parts, which would have done nothing to speed combat up.